Just IT recruitment

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by Shinx2k6, Aug 11, 2009.

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  1. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Simon, it's clear you have a lot of passion about your company and from your answers and taking a lot of agro and coming back for more which I take my hat off to you. Whilst I still think the course length sounds too short for my liking I wouldn't lump you in the same category as some of the cowboys out there that do these all in ones in 6 months or less.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  2. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Thanks for your support Michael. You are right different people have different speeds and ways of learning. The actual course is up to 18 months, but I am going to change it in the next month to a 24 month course to give people more time to take and hopefully pass the CCNA.

    But we try to get people into the IT industry as quickly as possible because time is money. The typical salary people get in London as an entrry level candidate is around £18K, although we have one employer who pays
    £26K for a 12 month fixed contract - very unusual but great! If we assume that is worth £1500 per month to an individual on the course, then every month they are studying (assuming they are not working) is costing them £1500 so if we can get them into the market quickly everybody is happy.

    This is one of the aspects people should consider when they are thinking about self study or using Just IT. If people are accellerated into a job quicker through my company than if they study from home they should count the cost of the course and also the lost earnings - assuming they are earning less than £1500 per month. If it takes one person 3-4 months longer to get their own career started than if they use Just IT as a partner then it is possible that it has cost them more money - depending on if they are working or not.

    So if people are suitable in the learning style and academic background, the majority of people do the full time intensive option over 3-5 months (typical time to get a job including work placement). If they are challenged with the learning the can 'jump' from one course to another - the courses run every 4 weeks. So it is flexible to suit them. Equally some people need an extended work placement or even two. So we need to be flexible for the indivuduals needs. The important thing is they fulfill their potential as quickly as possible.

    There is also a home learning solution, http://www.justit.co.uk/it_training/online-it-courses, that runs across the country for people who are working or can not study in London. This can allow people to study in an even more flexible way, whilst being supported with the career support side and recruitment team through webex sessions and trips to London. The problem with this is that the candidates need to come into London for work placements. We are working to set up more relationships in larger cities so if anyone knows companies that are interested in offering work placements for 4-8 weeks I would love to know about them.
     
  3. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    But a newbie to IT should not be doing the CCNA. There are certs designed for people wanting to get into IT and certs for people who already work in IT i.e those certs like the MCSA,MCSE and CCNA are there to backup peoples work experience and level of experience.

    No IT manager in their right mind will hire someone who has no experience but has a qualification/certification positions like those need to be worked towards.

    Now that is the fault of HR depts aswell as training companies and that should be addressed.

    Now Simon I dont have time to talk to you on phone but if you wish I can converse via email/IM if you wish sometime next week. PM me if you want.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  4. dmarsh
    Honorary Member 500 Likes Award

    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    I totally disagree like others with the 'Zero to Hero' approach in general, people who need the A+/N+ are generally not well versed in IT. They therefore are NOT suitable for the CCNA until after they spend a reasonable amount of time absorbing the material, meeting real world issues, and generally letting it all sink in. Most people don't even complete their CCNA courses in 3-5 months, sure they study part time, and probably take 9-12 months, but for many they will need time between lessons to let things sink in and try stuff out. Many beginners will also need several months to complete the A+ and the N+. Likewise the 70-290 and 70-270 normally take most people around a month part time each.

    So in reality what you are offering is unsuitable for 99.9% of inexperienced people. It oversells to the inexperienced, and the experienced probably don't need it either.

    You also propagate the myth that the CCNA is a suitable cert for those with very little background in IT.

    The stark reality is the only reason most people get through most of these cramming / bootcamp style courses is they use braindumps. Further damaging both the certification industry and the IT industry.

    Lastly there is a LOT of money in recruitment, selling it as a feature of a training package is pretty misleading, recruiters will line up to find jobs for good candidates that are young and cheap, in the hope of making hefty commissions off them.

    As I understand it the Institute for IT training is a voluntary body ? They have no power to police the industry so in effect membership means little.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2010
  5. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    So many views!! It’s difficult to point a point over for the market in general. Everybody needs to do their research and work out where they sit in the market. But for the small number of people we train I have the following views;

    I totally disagree like others with the 'Zero to Hero' approach in general.

    I agree - but the people we train do not have zero experience. Many are IT graduates.

    Many beginners will also need several months to complete the A+ and the N+.

    On the instructor led side of my company 90% of our candidates pass at least one of the certifications and 60%pass two in 5 weeks

    So in reality what you are offering is unsuitable for 99.9% of inexperienced people.

    I think our programme suits more than 0.1% of the candidates who feel they want to get a job in IT, but certainly only the minority would benefit from it and as you know we only train 250 people. Many people want to get into IT but don’t have the right knowledge about what the market is looking for and are suited to other careers.

    You also propagate the myth that the CCNA is a suitable cert for those with very little background in IT.

    The minimum experience I would suggest is a year in IT before looking at the CCNA. But I can guess you think that’s too little.

    Lastly there is a LOT of money in recruitment, selling it as a feature of a training package is pretty misleading, recruiters will line up to find jobs for good candidates that are young and cheap, in the hope of making hefty commissions off them.

    I don’t want to mislead people - but I do want to offer a job orientated package. This needs more discussion.

    As I understand it the Institute for IT training is a voluntary body ? They have no power to police the industry so in effect membership means little.

    I have my own point of view about the IITT and this has changed massively over the last 7 years. It is a voluntary body. You are right that membership means a lot less than I hoped it would. But over the last 4 or so years that I have been more involved in the IITT I was hoping it would create a kite mark for quality training providers that protected the personal training market. This sadly has not happened.
     
  6. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    OK - this will be my last word on the subject. I think all you're doing here is re-submitting the same point over and over again in an attempt to get the 'last word' on the subject - largely because this forum is one of the most visited IT Training-related forums on the net.

    However, you have failed to address the main issue - as raised by many people (including myself) - that those already working in the industry have with your sector: namely that whilst it's all well and good for you, yourself, to state that you have lofty, genuine and well-meaning feelings about how your company works, the fact remains that you still accept people onto your courses who can't speak English properly, have zero experience or understanding of IT and are patently nowhere near ready for working in this field. This has been proven by some of the people commenting on this very thread. That doesn't quite jibe with your assurances that you vet people prior to accepting them onto the courses you offer. Having sat alongside an innumerable amount of these poor sods over the past 12 years I can state that this has been going on since the year dot in IT - if anyone reads this thread and wonders whether or not this company is any different to all the others, then make your own mind up. I've heard all this before, on more than one occasion. The simple fact of the matter is that IT is f***ing difficult. If it wasn't, then all the muppets who got into it during the dot com boom because they thought it was an easy way to make a living would still be doing it. You CAN'T just learn how to do it in a few weeks and get a job - it just doesn't work that way.

    Oh, and one more thing - stop trying to get people to come and talk to you or email you for christ's sake. It doesn't 'prove' anything - all that happens then is that you get the chance to do exactly what your salespeople do - charm the pants off them and have them walking out thinking "hey, that sounded great". You're no different to anyone else in your industry, and until you stop doing the (ahem) 'careers' part of your business and just concentrate on training people, you won't be seen as any different. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  7. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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  8. LukeP

    LukeP Gigabyte Poster

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    You're doing great SEO work here though, Simon! :dry
     
    WIP: Uhmm... not sure
  9. luddin

    luddin New Member

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    Hello Everyone..

    I have been reading through this forum and thought I would offer some unbiased information...

    I trained through Just IT in April.....They secured a Work Placement for me in August.....I worked hard during my work placement, that they decided to keep me on full time on a permanent contract....

    I would like to note that when I started my training with Just IT, I had zero experience in IT....The only thing I had was my keen interest and determination to get into the IT industry....Through the help of Just IT, EVERY SINGLE person in my class (16 people) passed our A+ exams in 5 weeks...and two people secured a job in the first 5 weeks.... I have to stress that the trainers are great..... The one to one support they offer is really helpful and everyone is very approachable, you can literally go and have a one to one talk with someone anytime you want, and Simon was constantly in touch with me during my time there and he still is....

    Just IT isnt just about coming and doing your certificates, they offer much more than that in the sense that they really do help you develop you as a person and your soft skills such as your communication skills ...I would also like to state that before Just IT I was working at a dead end job as a retail assistant and had dropped out of university, and now after only 7 months I am working full time as a 1st Line Support Technician...Furthermore I was one of three people who was doing a work placement for the same company and the other 2 people secured jobs as well for different companies....

    Finally I'd like to say that if you are not going to put the hard work in, then you are obviously not going to get results.....I worked really hard since I joined Just IT and all the work has been rewarded....So it goes to show that a little hard work and effort can go a very long way....I have had a very positive experience and would like to thank everyone at Just IT for all their help....
     
  10. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Well how about that for timing…. :rolleyes:
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) MS-900 AZ-900 Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Microsoft Certs
  11. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Yeah - how 'bout that unbiased information there. :dry
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  12. chuckliddell

    chuckliddell Banned

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    simon is that you........?:rolleyes:
     
  13. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    I can confirm that I asked Luddin to comment on his experience. It helps to show one candidates experience, but there are many others. No all of which are so positive. As I said before we are not perfect and some small number of people feel let down by Just IT. It does however give people some more balanced information, since up to now there have been a lack of comments from actual candidates.

    Simon
     
  14. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    I must have done something to you in a previous life! Why dont you follow up with Lippon and make your own decision.
     
  15. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Zeb is right this is bias information. It should start to help build a picture though about what we do. There are many other things to look at when chosing a training provider. My previous post identified some;

    • Visit the company at least once
    • Meet the owner(s) / directors of the company
    • Ask for the chance to try before you buy
    • Look at the small print
    • Talk to the candidates on the course
    • Look at the financial stability of the company
    • Look around the net for good / bad bits of feedback
    • Don’t rush into anything
    • Look for guarantees that can be backed up
    • Look for pay as you earn options
    • Look for companies that focus getting you to the stage where you have all the skills to get a job - certifications, soft skills and commercial experience if you need it.
    Regards

    Simon
     
  16. dmarsh
    Honorary Member 500 Likes Award

    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    IT graduates will have already had three years fulltime training, if they can't pass the A+/N+ in a short period of self study then they have no business in IT.
    They don't need your course. They arguably don't really need A+/N+ certification in most cases either. They can also use recruiters for thier job hunt. What do they need to pay you thousands of pounds for ?

    So either your screening is very good, or a bunch of people are using braindumps ?

    See your other point :-

    You are advocating that people can get A+, N+, 270, 290 and CCNA in 3-5 months no ? In what way is that not portraying a 'Zero to Hero' approach or that CCNA is entry level ?
     
  17. zet

    zet Byte Poster

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    Hey guys,

    I've agreed to meet with Simon tomorrow and listen to what he has to say and what he has to offer. I'm doing some research and came across some of the terms and conditions, everything looks above board except for this:

    "Programme completion is deemed to occur when the Supplier has been notified by the Candidate in writing that
    the following exams have been passed – A+ Essentials (220-701); A+ IT Technician (220-702); Installing,
    Configuring and Administering Microsoft Windows XP Professional (70–270); Managing and Maintaining a Microsoft
    Windows Server 2003 Environment (70–290) and CISCO CCNA (640-802). The 90 or 120 day qualifying period
    (see paragraph 4 above) will commence from the date of receipt of the written notification."

    paragraph 4:

    "If the candidate fails to obtain an IT job offer of £16k-£25k per annum (current average is £18k) within 90 days of
    programme completion (120 days if the candidate undertakes a work placement) the supplier will give the
    candidate a rebate of £500 per month to a maximum of the total training fees. However as soon as an IT job of
    between £16-£25K is gained the repayments will cease. At this point a final payment by Just IT Training will be
    made, which will be pro rata for part months."

    My question is that according to the terms and conditions a candidate is not put forward for a job until he or she is qualified with all the certifications listed? Now, I'm not entirely sure which qualifiy as 'entry level certs' but I thought the CCNA was for those with a fair amount of experience? I also googled and came up this: http://www.homerj.co.uk/networking_course.htm - someone got all the certs in 3 months? Am I missing something here?
     
    Certifications: BSc, MSc, A+
  18. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    yes the CCNA is not entry level, network+ is entry level.

    and getting all those certs in 3 months sounds a bit dodgy to me.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  19. zet

    zet Byte Poster

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    yeah I took a look at his certs and it says he obtained them in 2005 (from justIT) ...If you take a look at the syllabus on the site there is one with a progression chart and it shows the candidate doing a 5 day CCNA course...
     
    Certifications: BSc, MSc, A+
  20. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    No he did them mid 2002, the CCNA expired in 2005

    The guys CV shows he is pretty smart, with 9 O levels, a few A levels and an engineering degree.

    But the time scale was very short and i doubt he remembers much of all that stuff now.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)

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