Is it time to change our thinking - IT Certification

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Agreed.

 

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Again it's a case of ideal world you would go work for a company and they would say build me an exchange system. Reality is that most cases that Exchange system is in place and you don't get any build experience. Every job is different and some have been more lucky than others but as I'm discovering I have to do something to push my career on and that is filling in gaps and studying new areas. Commercial experience is great but sometimes you don't get the experience through the normal means so next best thing is studying and labs to try and match a production environment as best as possible.

 

If I was honest with people trying to get into IT at present I would say to them possibly to think again as all I can see is a painful couple of years ahead at least. As for others then I think it's a case as you need certs to seperate yourself from the other 100+ people that apply for every IT job. Of course experience is vital but then again so is having MCSA/MCSE or CCNA amogst other certs on your CV just to give you a chance of an interview.

Right or wrong employers ask more from potential employees and they are always moving the goal post. When I got into IT employers were asking for 1 years experience and then when I got 1 year they asked for 2 years and a MCP. Now it's 3 years and MCSA. People coming into IT are being asked for more certs just to get an interview. It's how you get that cert that counts. Again MCSE in 5 days ehh no MCSE over 1-2 years and a passion for IT as well as an understanding of the subject then yes. Again the hard thing is indentfying those people.

 

Shouldent it be an MCITP rather than an MCSE?

 

You'll have to forgive this old timer .... I don't adapt as well as I once did to these new fangled certifications and technologies - I'm getting old

But I agree 100% with what Craig said. Very few people will actually use these skills on a production network that is tightly change controlled. Almost all of my learning has been lab based and has served me very well in those 'real world' situations...

I have often found that those people who don't work with their own lab and only work on a company's production network struggle when the brown stuff hits the fan - because they have never had the oppertunity to do it before.

 

Like I've said, having those certs will lessen your chance of getting an interview with a good company... with employers who understand certification and don't rely on a clueless recruiter who will simply send them mediocre, inexperienced, unqualified (but not uncertified) employees.

Hey, if you feel the need to overcertify to get those recruiters to notice you, knock yourself out, and I wish you well. But understand that being overcertified will likely get you eliminated from the very companies you should WANT to work for.

Actually, that's a misconception. There have **always** been a batch of clueless employers and clueless recruiters asking for MCSEs to fill first-line tech positions. This hasn't changed any... nor do I ever expect it to.

 

You guys have evidently - and quite unfortunately - worked for the wrong companies.

 

That and chances are that those same companies hire out their hands on work to consultants

 

Employers dictate to employees what they want not the other way around. You do what you need to stay employable in a very satuated and cutthroat market. In most cases I tend to get through to interview level and I think a big part of that is my certs which stand me out against the other 100+ people who applied for the job with years of experience the same as mine. I tend to get to the interview and then I let them know me and what I can and can't do and usually I've tended to do well in getting the job. I agree with the clueless employers bit but they pay my bills. There is no such thing as over certifying yourself if you learn the subject well. It is then up to the employer to decide. Some will think a long the lines of you and some won't but you can't win them all. But I'll take my chances in what I'm doing as so far it's served me well.

 

Maybe - but they've been amongst the largest IT companies in the world so I figured it was a good point of reference and others would be pretty similar.

Although I must admit I haven't come across too many decent techs who don't have their own labs and study on their own time.

I would say to all those looking to enter the industry "get stuck in, get a home lab and hit the books. There is an employer out there who will appreciate this and give you an oppertunity based on it".

 

Not at all, I'm in the minority who perform Installations and Migrations on Citrix, Cisco and Microsoft and set these things up on a regular basis.

In fact I'm off tomorrow on a installation tomorrow Newcastle > Edinburgh > Grimsby, where there IT guys employee us to go and do this type of work.

However, I was pointing out that alot of the market place who are employeed by a corporate body won't have the exposure as we do.

 

Yep, as per my reply to BM, I get hired as a specialist to solve other IT departments problems.

 

Exactly what I do as well.

 

I wouldn't say that I'm in the same league as you Simon (as I have only been in IT for less than two years).

But what I do know is that when I started in IT back in June 2008 I was amazed by the complacency by IT professionals.

I really do think that it IS an industry that if you put the energy and effort in you can get ahead.

 

Pretty much sums my career up. Until the brown stuff hit the fan in the market I was happy to plod along. Now that I'm on a forced break from work I have realised I should be much further along in my career than I am. I've bought some books and I'm going to do Citrix and then VMWare but I'm going to do it right and not get it done in a month. Again it comes down to how you learn new skills and apply them.

 

But if you're certifying on what you don't have experience on, you're not making yourself "stand out" in a good way.

Eh, do what you will. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your plan for the benefit of the people who are listening.

Sure... but that's why you keep getting stuck with clueless employers and jobs that go nowhere! Why in the world anyone would want to continue down that path is beyond my comprehension.

Keep telling yourself that, Sly. If there's even one employer who believes overcertification is bad - and from the responses on this forum, I can guarantee you that there are way more than one - then there IS such a thing as overcertifying yourself.

It's served you so well, you post threads such as "Career going down the tubes".

Those who want a tried-and-true method of advancing in their IT career can listen to my warnings and advice. Those who want to roll the dice and take their chances can give your method a try.

 

Unfortunately, you've seen firsthand that you're not in a place where you can grow.

Decent techs SHOULD have their own labs and study on their own time. Again, I'm not discounting the usefulness of labs. I simply point out that it is NOT considered "experience" by employers.

 

Not you, Craig... I was speaking to those such as JohnBradbury and Sly who can't seem to catch a break with a GOOD company. You've ended up at a company where you CAN grow.

 

Michael apart from the fact I've worked for the biggest shipping company in the world and one of the biggest IT companies in the world then I do have a clue in what I'm doing. Your right in my post you linked that I'm at a cross roads in my career due to the fact I can't progress in the area I'm in due to limited opportunities so I'm taking my career into my own hands. I hold my hands up and I should of learnt things like Exchange years ago but that goes against your advice. If I listened to you I would be plugging mice in all my career. Maybe you have been lucky Michael in your career and have followed the correct path in your career but for the rest of us that might not be the case. If we went off your understanding then Craigie would probably be reading scripts over the phone at PC world but he has taken his career into his own hands and has in fairness achieved more than me by doing so. By your recognising he is over qualified for 2 years experience. I say he has taken the initiative and got a head of the competition which is what I should of done years ago. What your doing is pigeon holing everyone into a one size fits all. People have different abilities and learn at different rates.

Your way of thinking is that anyone doing a degree in IT should stop now as they don't have commercial experience. Whilst we are at it student doctors should stop as well as they haven't performed a triple bypass before learning the theory behind the procedure. And no I don't think you can be overcertified if you learn in the correct manner and take the information in as thats how us humans learn new skills. What makes IT different from any other job out there.

And Michael please don't bring that post up of mine as we all know how that one ended and don't want to go over the in's and out's of it again..

 

I hope this will work ^
I have qualifications but no experience. I am in progress of setting home lab. Will that count as experience? Probably not but it is better than nothing.
Also, I don't think I will start studying for MCSE after A+. These lined up certificates on CV is only for clueless HR who, many times, write these certs in wrong way which is just a proof they got no idea what they are doing.

If ad is 2 days old on joboard then it scores 200+ applicants (talking about IT entry level jobs). I believe that people will try everything to stand out of the crowd so even get MCSE and apply for support role. So if I don't have MCSE and some others do, do they have better chance? Even if that is being overcertified for that job?
Would my lab work be more appreciated than someone's MCSE?