Is it time to change our thinking - IT Certification

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by JohnBradbury, May 13, 2010.

  1. JK2447
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    JK2447 Petabyte Poster Administrator Premium Member

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    I completely agree..... I forgot to say I also agree that companies asking for high level certs in low level roles tend to be the worst employers (from what I've seen others write on here). I guess you are in a good role yourself with all of this certification going on mate! :biggrin
     
    Certifications: VCP4, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.7, 7, 8, VCAP DCV Design, VMConAWS Skill, Google Cloud Digital Leader, BSc (Hons), HND IT, HND Computing, ITIL-F, MBCS CITP, MCP (270,290,291,293,294,298,299,410,411,412) MCTS (401,620,624,652) MCSA:Security, MCSE: Security, Security+, CPTS, CCA (XenApp6.5), MCSA 2012, VSP, VTSP
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  2. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    I hardly ever look at certs when I'm hiring.

    Luckily enough I don't need to do it at all in my current place because, although we're extremely server-heavy (89 at the last count!), we don't have too many user seats so because of departmental budget constraints there's only me and one other server guy - who is f***ing wicked (just like me) so we don't need to - and couldn't - hire anyone else. In past roles when looking at hiring I've always gone for 95% experience, 10% certs pre-interview, then it's all about teasing the tech out of them at the interview itself.

    In my experience, three things that are most important are experience, technical ability at interview, and interview 'soft skills' (persuading a company you'd be a good fit).

    I, personally, haven't sat a Microsoft exam for six years. I don't plan on doing one any time soon either. I have sat other vendor certs more recently, but only because work determined that they were necessary for my job and paid for them.

    All that said, I think the higher up you go in the industry, oddly enough, the less certifications count. I think if you're interviewing for jobs that carry a high level of technical knowledge and responsibility, it's almost a given that you'll have many/most of the skills required if you get through the sift - then it's all about proving you're a good fit.

    Oh and, to answer the OP's original point, the reason the industry is awash with people from the subcontinent with CCNPs and other certs with no experience is that they braindumped them, plain and simple. They don't have the experience necessary to pass the exams - but know that no employer in this country will take them seriously without certs, ergo they just memorise a set of answers. Let's not beat about the bush - everyone knows it - it's plain and simple to see every time you interview a bunch of people for a first line job. In no way should people who have cheated their way to a certification be 'welcomed' into my industry. They piss me off as much as salesmen, lawyers and cowboy tradesmen.

    Understand - before anyone gets on their high horse - I'm not saying this is germane only to people from the subcontinent. It's just as prevalent in people who have been born and raised here. It's just that people who've just got off the plane are more likely to work for peanuts, thus will naturally undercut the native population.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
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    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  3. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    I think we are all debating various different points in a potential candidates career

    once you HAVE experience, its pretty easy to demonstrate it (my 7+ page resume highlights this) and certs really just fall by the wayside (I don't use logos, or multiple decelerations of the same cert) and Certs are actually important in my field (consulting for partners means certified staff are required for partner levels and pricing benefits)

    But at the entry level, do i discount a tech because he has a cert? absolutely not, I was in his shoes years ago, and the fact he has learned technology to the point that he can pass numerous tests (obviously i grill this, I'm not about to be walked over by a dumper) to me shows drive and determination, something that (as stated above) is seriously lacking in the large numbers of absolute prats that inhabit this industry, I'd hazard a guess its closer to 95%!

    And as usual many of you totally ignore the different requirements of different industries and regions in this debate
    when I moved to Boise, I was absolutely appalled by clients turning round to me and saying 'yeah a days downtime is no big deal, but anymore and we start to get antsy' coming from a FTSE250 background in the City of London this was just unheard of and alien to me, but its something that fits the culture here, things are cheaper, effects are felt less

    a 'Systems Engineer' for a small outfit in a small town with no national presence may well like the idea of a bright and willing team member who they can get fairly cheap due to lack of exposure, a demonstration that he knows a thing or two about the lone Cisco router they have may be all that it takes, an a CCNA or CCNP most certainly shows this

    I'm thankful for the many companies out there that DO hire like that, or I would not be where I am today, because everyone starts without experience, but understanding a product and technology through testing and certification makes me a lot more comfortable letting someone touch a device the first time than just dropping them in the deep end. not every outfit has teams of staff, where mentoring is possible or encouraged, and I think we miss out on a lot of bright potential in this industry due to the obscene hiring practices on both ends of the scale

    The industry will right itself, just as it did at the end of the 90s, and the people that have what it takes will succeed, as long as they stick with it, i've had a period of over 18 months unemployed in my career history, and i trained, i studied, i hit the labs, and i got offered jobs based on those newly acquired skills. it most certainly IS possible, and i have witnessed it in plenty of occasions

    Don't get me wrong, I don't for the life of me think certs, outrank experience, but there is an end to this industry that just does not involve experience, and that's the bottom, and I don't discount people who have taken the time to better understand the technology they work in, and want to work in, just don't expect the pay or responsibility on day 1, just because your certified up the whazoo!
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
    Certifications: MCSE, MCITP, VCP
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  4. SimonD
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    I think a large part of the reason we are seeing this now is that both the agencies and companies involved don't understand the certifications and what's required\involved with them.

    I think something that should be done from our (my) perspective is educating them about it, I have seen positions before asking for MCSE\MCITP\CCNA\CCNP for entry level positions, I have phoned them up just to make sure and when they have confirmed it I have actually mentioned to them that these weren't entry level certifications and that they would struggle to find someone to do the role for that price and with those certifications, they agreed.

    I recently had an agency phone me up about some Config Manager design and implementation work, the position required me to design, document and implement a complete multi-site SCCM infrastructure. I told them that yes, not a problem, what rate? When I was told £250 I actually laughed at them because it was way too low for someone to have the experience and knowledge to do that kind of work, again the agency agreed and told me that in the three weeks this had been out they hadn't managed to find anyone willing to take it on for that price. My advice to them? Tell the client that the experience required for the work requires more than they were offering and until the upped their offer they wouldn't find suitable candidates.

    For a long time hiring companies have relied on either HR or Agencies with little experience of the IT industry to tackle the experience side of work, all they think is that having the cert is all that's required rather than having the experience and the cert to back it up. Its time that they realised that it's not all about certs.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
  5. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

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    I hope he works out also, but he's just one of many waiting to be shortlisted at the moment. His lack of certification doesn't worry me at all to be honest as I don't necessarily feel it's mandatory for people to be certfied. He does have some IT quals that are not what I would consider certs, but are relevant to the job (NVQ etc...).

    If he was sucessful we'd provide the training and funding for some certs as one thing I do think is that it reflects better on the team when we are dealing with clients if we can say 'everyone in our team has X or Y cert' etc...

    As for if people are bright or a bit thick ... I think we should be able to acertain that fairly quickly in the interview. We also may be getting those who are shortlisted to demonstrate some skills on a virtual server / workstation.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCP, MCDST, MCSA 2K3, MCTS, MOS, MTA, MCT, MCITP:EDST7, MCSA W7, Citrix CCA, ITIL Foundation
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  6. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

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    Interesting thread and post reply so far, but seems like we're all on par here so don't know why certs and experience debate and comments are forever not ending.

    The point is certs would get you to an interview or be part of the pile of candidates invited for an interview. To perform the role and person spec for the job only experience, personality and willingness would eventually land you the job.

    Finally, we all started from somewhere i.e. service desk or helpdesk so lets not be too rash or harsh on new genuine IT entrance people with the right apttitude and attitude.
     
    Certifications: MCSE: 2003, MCSA: 2003 Messaging, MCP, HNC BIT, ITIL Fdn V3, SDI Fdn, VCP 4 & VCP 5
    WIP: MCTS:70-236, PowerShell
  7. Rob1234

    Rob1234 Megabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    I always thought getting a job was a combination of many factors.
     
    Certifications: A few.
  8. supernova

    supernova Gigabyte Poster

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    Perhaps regulation and certification in the recruitment industry should be mandatory :twisted:
     
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  9. Big_nath

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    I think there is a couple of problems.

    1: - Many Training providers encourage entry level candidates to do higher level certs like MCSE etc. I'm saying this is the case for all training providers.

    2: - Some companies ask for MCSE's etc for 1st line support. I have found a lot of employers don't really know what an MCSE is.

    So for someone who is looking to enter the IT industry, it looks as if they need MCSE, MCITP, CCNA etc to land their first job!

    When I was looking for my first IT job I got caught by this trap! I went and signed up for an MCSE course and found it extremely difficult and over my head for the 1st couple of years. I have only Just finished my MCSE 3 and half years later.

    In reality it is always best to get the experience then gain the certs after, but I can completly understand why so many people do it the other way.
     
    Certifications: MCP, MCSA, MCSA:M, MCSE, MCTS
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  10. supernova

    supernova Gigabyte Poster

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    Last edited: May 14, 2010
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  11. ericrollo

    ericrollo Megabyte Poster

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    Loads of job applications are like this.
     
    Certifications: MOS Master, A+, MCP 271
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  12. supernova

    supernova Gigabyte Poster

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    Oh yeah you cant blame a someone for wanting to get a good job, however, i see so many people with MCSE that haven got a clue and unfortunately it's those people that loose out to the experienced.
     
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  13. supernova

    supernova Gigabyte Poster

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    Well thats a sign of someone writing a job advert that hasn't got a clue and shouldn't be doing the job that they are doing.
    Not even getting the Comptia A+ right is just awful.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
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  14. Big_nath

    Big_nath Kilobyte Poster

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    I agree, I think you have to ask how a lot of these so called MCSE's are actually gaining the certs?
     
    Certifications: MCP, MCSA, MCSA:M, MCSE, MCTS
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  15. supernova

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    Anyone can read a few books and pass an exam without the use of braindumps, even if they don't pass first time . Its knowing the stuff between the lines and out of the scope of the exams that is key .
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
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  16. supernova

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    and of course having recruitment jobs as low basic wage high bonuses, doesn't help because it makes most recruiters desperate for a sale.
     
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  17. Big_nath

    Big_nath Kilobyte Poster

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    Yes, you are spot on about know the stuff between the lines. That is exactly where the experience comes into play! Unfortunately though there are still loads of people trying to take shortcuts with the use of dumps!!

    I am strongly against braindumping! It makes me so angry! But lets not get into that, lol.
     
    Certifications: MCP, MCSA, MCSA:M, MCSE, MCTS
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  18. morph

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    i think the issue is with training providers offering the ccna /mcse in 5 days etc.. i also think its emplyers fault as well. My place told me that if i get a ccna i'd get a payrise, i said why (although happy to take it) - because your more qualified - yeah but in the workplace i dont have the experience! Like passing your test then learnign to drive!

    My situation - i'm going to acheieve my ccna, then i'm trying to look at server stuff, i've had a word with my boss and said i'd like to spend a couple of hours a week with one of the server guys just going over various stuff - i might not even take the exam but would like to get more knowledge!

    I wont take the ccnp as i am not currently working in a company where i'm constantly troubleshooting networks - i'[m hopeing in the future having the ccna will help me get into a company like that, maybe a datacentre or somthing - anyway my 2p's worth:)
     
    Certifications: Network +, ITIL Foundation, CCENT, CCNA
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  19. SimonD
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    SimonD Terabyte Poster

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    There are some of us who pay for our own training that prefer the accelerated approach, I am not the kind of person who can generally pick up a book and read it (well a technical book, fiction etc is a breeze). For me I only get a couple of pages through before I am falling asleep I much prefer the hands on style, so a nice accelerated classroom where I am out of communication for as little time as possible suits me down to the ground.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
  20. Kitkatninja
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    Just throwing in my 2 cents:

    Vocational and Academic I believe is a way to do this. I use to believe this with professional (higher-end) certifications, and this is why...

    Well as BM alredy said this (gaining higher-end certification prior to experience) is actually an old way of thinking. Employers were asking for MCSE's for entry level jobs, because of this the MCSE was devalued, as alot more people were "braindumping". And alot of those that didn't braindump were just studying to pass the exams (not all of them, mind you). Hence one of the reasons why MS made change's to the MCSE 2k3 and now the MCITP program.

    In the years that I've been in IT, I have met people with MCSE's with no experience and they couldn't even join a client machine to a domain, let alone install a server. While this may not be the majority, it does go to shape what I think.

    Perhaps, but it'd be a nightmare to regulate...

    -Ken
     
    Certifications: MSc, PGDip, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, MBCS CITP, MCP, MCSA, MCSE, MCE, A+, N+, S+, Server+
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