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IOS confusion

Discussion in 'General Cisco Certifications' started by iansane, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. iansane

    iansane Bit Poster

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    Hi, I'm new here and to Cisco products but would like to start learning on my own as early as possible so eventually I can take the CCNA exams.

    Unfortunately I am not working now (in school full time) and have to take the free lab route of using dynamips on my linux box. At least to get started. When I get employed I can look into buying hardware on ebay.

    So do I need to pay for a Cisco contract to be able to get the IOS image for my dynamips and then which IOS do I need to get for CCNA? This is all very confusing to me. Maybe I can get some advice from the network instructor at my school but I'd appreciate a point in the right direction from you guys.

    Thanks
     
  2. Big_nath

    Big_nath Kilobyte Poster

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    Hi mate sorry i don't know much about cisco, but i would beware about getting to many qualifications before you have relivant work experience. Lots of employers don't like lots of certs without experience.
     
    Certifications: MCP, MCSA, MCSA:M, MCSE, MCTS
    WIP: A few
  3. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Unfortunately, you cannot legally use Cisco's IOS on Dynamips. Cisco's licensing terms do not allow the use of their IOS outside of the Cisco router hardware: link

    Big Nath's advice is correct - I wouldn't recommend you pursue the CCNA until you get some real-world router administration experience.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  4. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

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    I'd say the same.
    You mentioned Cisco is new to you, but do you have much networking background. Is IT from a career perspective new to you? If yes, I'd recommend avoiding the Cisco track(s) until some general networking background is built by experience and more vendor neutral certifications.
     
  5. iansane

    iansane Bit Poster

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    Thanks guys for the replies.

    I have class room experience and actually did a small job for a company with Windows server 2003 and 30 XP clients as a domain environment but that's the extent of my real world experience.

    I'm trying to figure out how to get the experience though. I see hundreds of jobs but they all want years of experience plus MSCE, CCNA, Security, A+, etc. So I was thinking well, they all want certs and experience. If I can't get hired to get the experience maybe I can if I have the certs.

    At the moment I'm looking for internships and entrylevel jobs through programs at my school but if they can't help, I don't know how to get started.

    As far as dynamips, I found out which one I need. If it's illegal why is it suggested as a free alternative in the lab building post here? And in the documentation for dynamips, I finally found this in a readme file.

    "In order to use dynmips you need to have a Cisco IOS Image for 7200
    Router Series. The Image is not part of this software!"

    Is that like restricted software for linux where it's illegal in the US but it's available because it's coming from another country?
    Are they saying it's illegal here in the US and it's my responsibility not to break the law?

    I guess when I finally get at least a paid internship, I can afford to set up a real lab with real router and switch but I sure would like to take advantage of the free dynamips in the Ubuntu repositories in the mean time.
     
  6. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    dmittedly, the Dynamips situation is a little unclear for a lot of newbies. Basically, Dynamips itself is not illegal - however, using the Cisco IOS in a device other than a piece of Cisco hardware is illegal. Of course, you then have to question what use Dynamips is going to be to your Cisco studies without the Cisco IOS (the answer would be 'none').

    I have no idea why Dynamips is listed as an alternative/study aid in the post you mentioned earlier - the same as I have no idea why some otherwise legit cert site owners have allowed it to be advertised all over their boards/sites.
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  7. iansane

    iansane Bit Poster

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    well it's good to know the legality or illegaliy of it. Usually there is a disclaimer in things like this when they are in the Ubuntu repository stateing that it is illegal in certain countries and you have to agree not to use it if it's illegal. These things are not in the Ubuntu supported repo's and are provided by 3rd party or the community.

    Actually I just checked and it is in the unsupported multiverse repository where I got it from.
     
  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Getting a bunch of high-level certifications isn't going to help you get a job. In fact, it can make it harder for you to get a job. The companies asking for MCSE (not MSCE) or CCNA-level candidates won't hire you because you don't have the experience (and your competition WILL), and the companies asking for entry-level techs won't hire you because you 1) look too expensive (because they don't need someone that certified), or 2) look like you're not going to stay there very long (whereby they'd have to find/hire/train someone all over again).

    If you want experience, get an entry-level job... which do NOT require the MCSE or CCNA. If you're looking for a job that requires (not prefers, but requires) experience, or if you're looking for a job that requires those certifications, then you're not looking at an entry-level job.

    You should look around on job posting sites, in the newspaper, and most importantly, by asking friends who are in the IT industry - an inside source is the easiest possible way to get into IT. Yes, it is often about who you know. If you don't know any... meet some.

    If you want certifications to help you along, you should pursue the A+, Network+, and MCDST, but no farther until you get some real-world experience. And don't wait until you're certified... look NOW, while you're studying. If you get a certification, add it to your CV and keep looking.

    No... as Zeb said, Dynamips itself is legal. Using the Cisco IOS with Dynamips is illegal - it's a violation of copyright law. And of what use is Dynamips without the Cisco IOS?

    It's illegal not just inside the US - it's illegal anywhere that follows international Copyright Law.

    Of course it's your responsibility to not break the law... just like it's your responsibility to not break any number of other laws. :rolleyes: You can choose to follow them, or you can choose to break them... as long as you're willing to face the consequences if you get caught breaking the law. It's your choice, man. Do what you will.

    So... because you can't afford something, it's okay to use something illegally? :blink The Cisco IOS is not legally yours to do with as you choose.

    I must say, you're not starting off on good footing here...
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  9. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

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    I would advise you start off with A+, Network+ and the MCDST (id recommend the XP track currently), these will help you get on the first rung of the ladder.

    As you have little real world work experience I think looking for 1st line support within a company will be the best for what you are looking for, its just a case of empathising your customer service skills, desire and determination to learn and your love for IT will more often than not impress a prospective employer.

    Net admin and Network Engineer jobs dont fall out of trees, and the amount of knowledge and experience you need for these takes years to develop, unfortunately with one role and no certs (or uni quals) mean your CV will not have enough goodies to get you to interview for those roles.

    Dont be disheartened tho, id create a more thorough plan of study and build up on your certs, starting from the entry level ones, you will become a much better technician by doing this, and also get to the level you want to be quicker.

    Best of luck
     
    Certifications: A+, Net+, MCSA Server 2003, 2008, Windows XP & 7 , ITIL V3 Foundation
    WIP: CCNA Renewal
  10. iansane

    iansane Bit Poster

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    No I didn't mean it to sound that way, I just said it sure would be nice to use dynamips.

    I'm not saying it's ok because I can't afford it. There are plenty of rich people copy righting, pirateing, and cracking software just cause they can. And no it's not right either way. I was just a little put off by it being suggested as a free alternative when using it is illegal.

    I'm looking at jobs with titles like "help desk" and "entry level" and "customer support" where they ask for experience and certs. Turns out after talking to someone at a staffing agency, there are different levels of help desk and apparently no body's hiring level one. I guess it has a lot to do with the job market here in Georgia right now.

    OH well, I'll keep up the search and thanks to all for the advice on certs. It really does make more sense to get A+ and some experience first. Someone told me today that someone with certs and degrees and no experience is a career student. Funny but true I guess.
     
  11. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Well, to be fair, most people don't read through Cisco's IOS licensing to know that it's illegal to use it outside of the router hardware. So I can understand why it is often recommended. That said... some people are going to break copyright no matter what because it benefits them to do so.

    In any case, I am glad to hear your clarification. :)

    Move northwest! I'll see what I can do to hook you up. ;)

    Have you checked places like BestBuy/GeekSquad and CircuitCity/Firedog?

    Yep, it's true. I always recommend to people in school to start working as soon as possible. Someone with four years of experience - even ONE year of experience - is more valuable than someone with a degree, at least at the beginning of their careers. Don't get me wrong - a degree WILL open up doors to you later in your career that are otherwise unavailable to you, and as such, I wholeheartedly recommend that you continue your education. But a college degree isn't really necessary to start out as a tech. :)
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  12. iansane

    iansane Bit Poster

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    Yes I sent resume's and even talked to geek squad at a career fair.

    Like I said I talked to a staffing agent. She is helping me develope my resume and articulate my talents better.
    After talking with her I have to agree that I may have caused people to be hesitant about hiring me because of lack of confidence and failing to articulate well. So much so that they wouldn't even give me an interview. I just need to practice and this staffing agent is helping me for free so things will get better.

    Well since my question about the CCNA was answered quite well, (thanks again), I'm going to move to the A+ forum and just work on CCNA for my own knowlege until I'm working in the field and ready to move up. Even without the certs, it will help me perform better to have more knowlege so studying can't hurt.
     
  13. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Excellent! Sounds like you've got some good assistance and advice there! What she has mentioned is actually pretty common with techs trying to break into IT... they either waaaaay overstate their skills (in an attempt to look better) or they waaaaay understate their skills (because they don't know how to confidently - and honestly - sell themselves). With her help, you should be able to start landing some interviews. Good luck on that!

    NOW you've got it! :) Got nothing against studying for the CCNA. :) More knowledge is **always** helpful!!

    Picture this... you're working in your desktop support job, when one of your network admins passes you in the hall, frustrated. He tells you that he can't get something configured correctly on a router. Although you're not yet certified, you've been studying, and you ask him a couple of well-thought-out questions. He eventually tells his boss that you're interested in Cisco and seem to have an aptitude for it... and he begins to allow you to shadow him and assist him during installs and configs. THAT is how to move up, even without being certified. The certification helps get you noticed initially... but it's the knowledge that helps you on a day-to-day basis.

    Now, I'm not saying that any of that WILL happen to you. But it could. I learned about server administration from other server admins when I was a field service tech, and I learned about network administration from other network admins when I was a server admin. It could happen to you. :)
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!

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