Hang in there!

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You can call me childish as many times as you like, it doesn’t make it true.

See, that’s how good you think you are. You genuinely believe I would be jealous of you just because you have played with computers since you were 10? I mean come on. I have nothing career wise to be jealous of you. I have my career which I am happy with and is progressing exactly how I want it. Yet you still seem to think I will be jealous of yours? For the record I would not like your job. I prefer working in IT, so please, forget this jealousy thing it’s ridiculous.

A person with a degree and no commercial experience is not “over-qualified”. A computing degree is not an automatic entry into IT. Yes, I know it is not required. But are you telling me there are a greater amount of jobs to apply for out there where this degree is going to hinder him than the jobs which it is not?

I don’t proclaim that everything is black and white as you seem to suggest I do. So I am not telling “how it really is.” I have given my experiences and my opinion (opinion being the bit about not leaving a 4 year gap on his CV).

Yes I did, which makes it all the more strange you choose to disagree with me when I say not to take the degree off the CV and look at the other factors, which are more likely to be causing the struggle (you know, the same things people without a degree need to look at)

I presume you realise that just by saying I have no logical response, you know that it doesn’t make it true.

That is not everyone though?

 

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and you will base that someone wouldn't simply on having a degree?

 

Indeed, how many people do you know that got their fantastical degree and thought "Yea, I will go work on a 13k a year help-desk for a few years" not many right? don't get me wrong, all entry level jobs are just that, entry level and are probably not going to be forever, but for the most part, especially these days ( and I talk from experience given that 90% of my friends are at university and coming towards the end right now ) graduates are not going to stick around too long. A degree can be specific to IT or not remember so after 6 months real life experience they are going to be a bit more valuable to several parts of the employment market, whereas someone with nothing but an A+ and 6 months experience doesn't quite hold the same weight if that makes sense. Which of them two examples is likely to be around longest? I think it's the latter.

Personally, I would leave the degree off but for now.

 

^ help desks are not the only route into IT.

And who would think of working in a help desk for a few years, degree or no degree?

 

Of course they are not the only way into IT, but for the majority 1st Line Support / HelpDesk is generally the way in. And by helpdesk I just meant entry level job.

The emphasis was more on the value of two people, one with and one without a degree and how much sooner the degree guy could potentially leave over a guy with just the A+

 

leaving a 4 year gap is a big risk just because some manager MAY believe an employee MAY leave sooner than someone without a degree.

i'm bored of this discussion now though so i am not going to respond anymore.

 

WAOW...WAOW AND WAOOOW thanks GUYS,
I didn't know i would create such an interesting and positive debate.It has opened my eyes in many ways. I'll definitely, follow your suggestions to leave out my degree on my CV and see what will come out of it.
Thank you all for your advice

I'll keep looking and any advice is more than welcome.
bless you all.

 

Thought they'd scared you off...

 

Some quite interesing opinions all round.

I've been on both sides of the hiring table and from a certain point of view, you're all right.
There's no single answer.

There's nothing worse than having someone over-qualified and under-experienced, but we've all got to start somewhere.

I once had a graduate working in a fairly junior role and he was a complete chisel.
Thought he knew it all.
What was worse was that he was asian.
So every disagreement started off with 'I have got a degree, you know' and ended with 'it's because I is black, innit?'
I ended up pointing out that his degree would be of more use to him in another role, and I would hate to think that I was holding him back. He ended up in offering to send his six brothers around to meet me.

Heh. Never again.

As a hiring manager I would be cautious of hiring someone with a degree for a very entry level job.
However, I would also be suspicious of a four year gap on a CV.
I would ask the candidate what they had been doing during that period.
So they would either have to own up, in which case they would have wasted all of our time, or they would have to lie.
Neither is particularly attractive to an employer.

But I've also been in the position of being over-qualified myself, and that sucks too.
I've got various versions of my CV, some more dumbed down that others.
But after a while it becomes increasingly difficult to hide your experience or achievements.

My personal feeling is that you are who you are, and you've got what you've got.
Ultimately you're only going to be happy and successful by accepting that and dealing with it.
Otherwise, you're throwing away 4 years of your life and chalking it up as a 'mistake' or a 'waste of time'.
I'd leave my degree on there and be proud of it.

The World's a different place that it was a couple of years ago.
The economic situation has seen a massive increase in graduates applying for entry-level jobs and highly experienced people applying for jobs that are beneath them.

Usually these things would be frowned upon for the very reasons that have already been mentioned.
Yes, those people are going to want to move on pretty quickly.
However, there are a lot fewer places for them to move on to than there were - that's why they're applying to you and not someone else.

So in actual fact, it's party time for employers.
They can recruit people with ample skills that require minimal training then underpay them, knowing that they're stuck there for a while.

What a world we live in...

 

I would be more mindful of the requirements of each role you apply for, and tailor your CV with real world examples (such as in your employment or academic history) of how you meet the requirements of the role and the company.

Also and try not to take this personally, and obviously I dont know you, but appearance is essential, do you dress appropriately for interviews? I mean a smart suit, but not excessively expensive so you dont want to look like you want to run the company (ie 100 quid one would suffice).

Unfortunately my career suffered in the past probably due to being a bit of a rocker, since cutting my hair short and getting better suited and booted (as opposed to just shirt and tie) my career prospects have improved. Sad but true lol.
This is mostly due to IT becoming more and more integrated with business.

As for the degree inclusion, tricky one I can see both sides of the debate, but to be honest you never know who you are going to get reading these CV's and certainly not know how they view a degree in the grand scheme of things, if you leave it out you may be required to explain history and why you left out your degree so that could put you in a sticky situation in regards to your honesty, alternatively it may make you look overqualified and the employer may question why you want to take a "lesser" role and how long you intend to stay.

If i received a CV i'd personally prefer honesty, and also look through for my requirements being filled, so if the degree stands on its own then you would likely be unsuccessful, but if you show you have practical experience, even if its in labs, then I would probably interview. But, you would best be prepared to answer awkward interview questions on degree level people applying for support roles, but everyone has to start somewhere.

By the way, sorry were not hiring here so this is theoretical

In closing, and like others have said, its a tough market at the moment, just keep studying and put this down on your CV, working towards MCDST etc, us IT managers love people who are motivated to self study, although hate they leave quicker than those who dont lol.

Good luck.

 

In all seriousness, a lot of the posts on this thread have their points and moisea should take heed of these.

As long as the OP is happy, even with the slightly drawn out debate, then it's all good

Qs

 

...because nobody's rolling over and agreeing with you.

Daniel, I feel sorry for you. If you don't start listening to people who have more experience than you, you're either gonna have a long, difficult IT career or a short, frustrating one.

 

Meaty Lolz at this thread.

Daniel - you need to chill man. BM can be (ahem) 'forceful' when he puts a point across, and will defend his viewpoint to the point of ridiculous stubbornness. However, he is vastly more experienced than you - and as he rightly says, it doesn't matter a damn what you think the right approach should be - he's just telling you like it is.

About 80% of the entry-level jobs out there could be done with people who have the IQ of a bowl of muesli (and I don't even mean the crunchy Alpen one with extra nuts - I'm on about the sawdust you get from Lidls). Do you really think that they are going to bother giving those jobs to a graduate? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Of the other 20% of entry-level jobs, most will be at companies who don't have the patience of money to spend recruiting someone who will be off like a shot six months into the role because they get a better offer (which they inevitably will with their degree AND six months' experience). There are a few who will hire graduates for entry-level roles and be willing to stick with them because they offer an environment those graduates can grow in - but they are few and far between and will end up being offered to the absolute cream of graduates simply because of the insane level of competition for them.

Now, here comes the difficult part for the OP. Those jobs he's getting interviews for will be the kind I mentioned above. However, his standard of written English is poor. That will instantly set him apart from most of the other applicants. It's not a dig - but a fact of life. This means that he's stuck applying for hundreds of jobs that he has no hope of getting because he's either; A - overqualified, or B - not as good as his competitors.

The argument about putting a degree on your CV is a difficult one. Personally, I think he should leave it on there simply because, if he doesn't, he'll have four years of his life unaccounted for (and, speaking from as much experience hiring people over the years as BM has, there's NOTHING a prospective employer likes to see less than unexplained gaps in employment or educational record on a CV). However, if he does this, he will continue to struggle to find an entry-level role in IT, and may well be better off just getting a foot in the door at a company in an administrative role then using that as experience. Even if he doesn't get a transfer into the IT department there (which he may well do anyway - opportunities have a habit of opening up in companies and, if they like you enough, with hiring budgets being what they are these days it's often a no-brainer for them to give you a go at it first before going to the expense and trouble of hiring from outside) he will at least have the real-world work experience to demonstrate to prospective employers next time he starts looking in 18 months-2 years.

Unfortunately Daniel, what BM is saying makes a lot of sense. The world doesn't work the way it should. Getting into IT is an absolute sumbitch these days. Paper certifications make it even worse (I've lost count of the number of times I've interviewed MCSEs who couldn't tell you the difference between a domain and a workgroup), so at least the OP doesn't have those to contend with. If he did, I'd most certainly advise him to omit them completely from his CV, as I would anyone else with no experience.

I know I come across quite often as an arrogant *****, and that BM often sounds holier-than-thou (no pun intended Mike), but you have to realise that your posts often make you sound like the annoying 23-year old student knowitall. I'm sure you're not like that in real life (much as I'm not an arrogant ***** in real life, and Mike isn't holier-than-thou (though he's certainly holier-than-me)) but you should be a bit more aware of how someone else may perceive your posts on this thread before you start casting stones at others.

Like I said, chill out!

Right - I'm off to get confused by LOST

 

bah i so did not want to respond anymore lol

Anyway, i have seen a few posts here from people saying the same as me, that they would leave it on. So why is the points i made about keeping it on the CV deeming me a know-it-all?

Also, just becuase i disagree with somene else's opinion on something i don't see why i should be taken as a know-it all. I posted my opinion on it from my experiences and from the way i see things going for the OP (4 year gap is gonna take some explaining somewhere along the line.) And i'm not a student

I understand i don't argue in the same way as BM, but that's because i don't want to. I can see what he's doing with the way he argues, but it only works in these text quote arguments. I'm sure others can see this too.

 

don't feel sorry for me. I listen to you, and many others, it just so happens i don't always agree. thats life.

I'm sure you don't just agree with everyone with more experience either.

 

You don't get it, do you?

 

If they truly have more experience than I do, why wouldn't I reconsider my viewpoint? Particularly if other people (also with more experience) agree with him/her? I'd be insane not to.