Hang in there!

Oh man! Ad-blocking software has been detected! :'(

This website is run by the community, for the community... and it needs advertisements in order to keep running. Blocking our ads means your killing our stats!
Please disable your ad-block, or become a premium member to hide all advertisements and this notice.

That's not the point. The point is that I review CVs, and you do not. So whose advice holds more weight, Daniel?

Further, I've been in IT over half as long as you've been alive, and have been messing with computers seven years before you were a thought in your daddy's head. I hate playing the experience card, but when you think you've got this stuff "all figured out", you leave me little choice, since logic does not work with you.

Plenty! Perhaps you haven't seen them in your short time in IT, but I certainly have! Not everyone is motivated to move up. Should you be? I think so, yes! But I've met at least as many who are not as those who are.

I much prefer hanging with those who do... but not everyone does, believe it or not.

Yes, they do get jobs. And I didn't say EVERY manager looks for what I say. MANY managers do... which is why I am giving the advice I am. You can believe it or not, but I've seen it firsthand, more than once, so it's absolutely true.

Yes, you are being childish. I said that an employer wants to maximize that time, and I explained that quite reasonably in my last post. Requiring that I tell you a specific amount of time AFTER I explained that to you IS being childish, Daniel. You just don't want to come out and say, "You know what, you have a point there... after all, you've done this longer than I have." Sorry, but that's immaturity, Daniel. That'd be like me taking genetics classes for four years and telling a professor who has done research for 15 years that he has this genetics thing all wrong.

What IS your suggestion, Daniel?

No, we are discussing his entire situation, so you have lost sight. And it is quite clear that you're arguing just to be arguing... not to help someone with their situation.

 

He didn't say "you". He said "a lot of people".

That said, I also have a degree and am doing fine. But I also know a lot of people who thought a degree was going to be their shortcut up the IT career ladder. It simply doesn't work that way.

 

I agree with you... I think that a degree does mean quite a bit. It means that you can persevere through an extended course of study in a particular field. And it's absolutely required to get certain jobs.

...just not entry-level jobs. ;)

 

Yes your work with computers when you were 10 is highly relevant here. I’ll not bother withthe rest as i do realise how pointless a discussion involving disagreement with you IS.

Em, i think it’s pretty clear i do not think everybody is that way inclined, however, the majority definitely are. Even if they are not moving up, they will move.

Yes, i’m sure these many managers definitely prefer to see a 4 year span of nothing relevant than see someone with a degree. I’m absolutely being serious here. Absolutely true.

I already agreed with your point that a manager will want someone to stay. Of course a manager doesn’t want to hire someone then for them to just leave. But they will also being employing an entry tech KNOWING it’s likely they will be moving up in the future. All i want to know, is the length of time you seem to think a degree qualified individual will leave in this managers head compared with someone without a degree.

Not to say on your CV you have done nothing for 4 years would be the first thing.

No, WE were discussing having or not having his degree on his CV.
WOW, because i do not agree with you, i definitely must be arguing just to argue. I mean, how can someone disagree with you...

 

Someone can disagree with me... and can even cause me to change my viewpoint... by a) having a logical argument, b) having more experience than me in a certain field, and c) being right. Unfortunately, you have none of these.

 

Please. They've done this pretty consistently for YEARS... typically by employers who have no clue as to what an MCSE is.

So if this is the case, why wouldn't an entry-level employer be drooling for someone with a degree? Why isn't this guy being snatched up?

 

I'm not trying to change your viewpoint, and i hope that's not what you were trying to do with me. If you think the experiences you have are the only thing that decides whether it is a good idea or not for the OP then....well actually this wouldn't surprise me

You have had your experiences with it, i have had mine.

Just to clarify my main point, i would leave the degree on there, as i think it will look better than the 4 year gap which is the alternative.

I'll try and make this my last comment on the matter.

 

I think the experiences I have better qualify me to give an experienced viewpoint... just like my experiences better qualify me to discuss IT certification or network administration.

On the other hand, if someone were discussing art history with me, and they were an art history teacher, I'd probably listen to them. Thus, experience DOES count, Daniel, even though you might think you know everything at 23.

Like I said... your advice is to "keep on doing what you're doing". So why'd you get all riled up when I pointed out that you recommend that he continue to bang his head against the wall? That's exactly what you're advising!!! Is it not? Other than to disagree what several of us have advised, you have nothing new to offer him.

Yeah, that'd probably be best.

 

I certainly don't think i know everything. For example, i don't know why you think you are so good

I do understand what you are tryin to convey with this experience chat, i just don't buy it from you.

The discussion has never gotten past me saying he should keep the degree on his CV. Because i personally haven't asked the questions required to figure out why he is not getting the job, doesn't mean i'm saying he should carry on exactly how he is. I'd suggest there is something wrong, perhaps jobs he is applying for, or maybe he's just been unlucky i don't know. All i am saying, the only thing i have said really with regard his situation, is that the degree > 4 year CV gap.

Of course you know best

 

I wish I were kidding. The MCSE has been so watered down over the years that techs don't hold it in much regard despite many recruiters and HR managers still drooling over it. And braindumping certainly hasn't helped that regard at ALL. That's one of the reasons why Microsoft ditched the MCSE designation and are going with all-new certification designations.

That's not to say that ALL companies are clueless. In truth, you WANT to find a company that properly advertises job positions, because it means that they have half a clue about IT certification. Would you want to work for a company that required the MCSE for first-line positions? I wouldn't... I'd go there only if desperate for work, because if they're that clueless about IT certifications, what else are they clueless about? Workloads? IT budgets? Capabilities (of servers, of ISPs, of software, of ANYTHING)?

By the way, your posts have FONT=Verdana and COLOR=black tags all over them... makes it hard to quote your replies.

True, and we should certainly tell him to check those things. But because I **know** he has a degree, I would be negligent if I didn't bring up the fact that a degree isn't required for entry-level IT jobs, and it can absolutely turn SOME employers off. I can't fix his 4-year gap, but if he wants a reason as to why employers might be passing him over, that is the only thing I **know** he has that entry-level employers might be hesitant about.

Yes and no. The bar is pretty much still at the same position it was. After all, an MCSE is STILL not required for entry-level jobs. But the people who apply for those jobs are more experienced AND more numerous... and therefore, THAT is why it is harder to get into IT. Not because the requirements have gone up.

That said, you are correct that employers can currently afford to be more picky. If an employer believes that a degreed person will stay, perhaps they will hire them. But it has been my experience that they do not tend to stay, and employers know that.

For the record, I stayed in my first IT job for 6 months, leaving to work for a customer for a sizeable increase in salary. That said, although I had a degree, it wasn't an IT degree. Perhaps they thought I wouldn't leave soon. Oops.

You're right, it doesn't come into play until you get further up the ladder. But that's exactly the reason why many of us recommend to not put the MCSE or CCNA on your resume until you get further up the ladder.

Again, not saying it's impossible to get an entry-level job with a degree. Many have done it. Just saying that it MIGHT be a negative to SOME employers, and is something to consider.

No, not at all. You made your points well.

Would I put it on my resume? Probably; after all, I did just that 12 years ago. But if I wasn't getting ANY bites, and someone told me that it might make me look like a flight risk, I'd consider removing it. And if that didn't work either, I'd put it back and try something else.

Hope this clarifies things for people who might have assumed differently.

 

I think I'm "so good", as you put it, because I've already built a successful IT career.

If you dont think you know everything, why don't you listen to those who have more experience, Daniel?

And this is why I've said that you're being childish. The only reason you said that was to attack out of spite.

You could learn a thing or two from JK.

 

it was a general you think you are so good

Let's sum up your argument for him leaving a four year gap on his CV:

a) you have been playing with computers since you were 10,
b) SOME employers MAY rather an entry level tech didn't have a degree (in your opinion) because the candidate is likely to want to not be an entry level tech for X amount of years

To me, that is not enough reason to leave a 4 year gap on his CV. I would look at the other reasons why he may not be getting a job. You know, the same reason that you would look at if it were someone WITHOUT a degree struggling to find their first IT job (something we have already established as being very common.

you genuinely belive that is an "attack"?

yes? and? are you about to list everyone i could learn things from?

 

Jumping back here as well.

Like Michael I have been on both sides of the table, being a guy who turns 40 next month and been in the IT industry since 1997 I also think it stands me in good stead for the advice I offer here.

You have to remember that in this time of economic down turn it really is an employers market, they want the most for the least but they also want to ensure that they aren't going to waste their money on an investment that could walk out 6 months down the line.

The OP has claimed to have sent off his CV for 1000 positions and failed to progress past the interview stage, as a potential employer I would look hard at his CV and decide whether it's worth MY TIME AND MONEY to invest in this guy if after 6 months with me he decides he wants to move on somewhere else. Now whilst I won't resent his decision to move on quickly, I will resent the fact that I have wasted my time and money training him up only for him to leave me. My concerns with someone new into IT and coming into an entry level position with a degree (whether IT related or not) is simply that he will move on too quickly.

I am not asking the guy to lie to me about his academic abilities because if asked I would expect a truthful response from him as to what he has done for the previous 4 years but even if he put on his part time work on there I am not likely to know how part time it was (even if he was working in a pub or supermarket), after all this person is coming in for an ENTRY LEVEL position, not a middle management\team leader position.
If asked why he left the degree off the CV then the ideal answer would be to say that he didn't want it to detract from the position he was going for.

Let me give you an example, a few years ago I went for a job with a Swiss Investment Bank in the City, my CV got past the agent and was seen by the IS Manager (who actually wasn't an IS Manager but actually a Project Manager impersonating an IS Manager), at that time I was told that I was over qualified for the position (2nd\3rd line role), I told the agent to get me an interview and if after the interview they decided I was over qualified and going to walk out on them then fair enough. I went for the interview (I was more than over qualified btw) and I put across my reasons for wanting the position (I was due to get married later that year and my fiance was moving to the UK from Luxembourg, I needed a position that whilst enjoyable wasn't going to tax me but paid well). I walked away from that job after 20 months.. and that was after an initial contract of only 3 months. Now I was fighting with a CV that worried the IS Manager because I was over qualified but with my experience I managed to talk them around, something the OP probably hasn't managed to do yet and because of that he isn't finding the work out there, as he isn't it's still my suggestion that he remove the degree from the CV and see how that goes for him.

 

When you have more than one person with a lot of experience under their belt offering the same advice don't you think they may have a point?

Actually more than you may want to believe, trust me I have seen it and been party to it, companies have a budget for staff acquisition and training, if you believe that your new starter is going to leave in 6 months would you bother even offering them a position and training? I sure as hell wouldn't, I would prefer to take someone who is likely to be with me for a couple of years, it's a two way street, I am offering you experience and training, you are offering me your best, if you aren't likely to be dedicated to me then I won't be to you and for an entry level 1st line position I would definitely be concerned with a recent uni leave\degree holder wanting to walk away as soon as something better came along.

But you have to ask yourself, if after a 1000 applications he still hasn't gotten a job would you not want to ask why? I offered a suggestion that the degree would worry people for someone coming into an entry level position. It would worry me.

 

Being honest here, the MCSE really isn't worth the paper its written on, certainly not the 2000 MCSE, the 2003 started to get better when they started putting sims into it but even that's not worth much these days.

Microsoft really got burnt with the whole paper MCSE thing a few years back, people sitting the NT4\2000\2003 MCSE's and not actually knowing the product, sure they could pass an exam but they couldn't work in the real world. Again thats why I prefer the idea of real world experience backed up by certifications rather than the other way around.

There are way too many entry level jobs these days asking for MCSE, CCNP qualifications (and yes I am being serious about the CCNP). I have phoned up agencies and asked for clarification about job requirements for particular roles, when it's confirmed that yes they want an MCSE for a 1st line engineer I just laugh at them. It's not just the agencies at fault these days either, companies are also to blame for this and that's one of the reasons why the MCITP came about. It's a more impressive sounding qualification (and there are some issues with the use of the word Engineer, for example it's got to be used correctly in places like Canada where it's a formal qualification).

 

Yes, I understand that you decided that you wanted to lash out with a childish statement. I responded as factually as I could.

You say that you're not being childish... yet you decide to lash out with your "point A". Jealous, much? By all means, continue. Keep digging that hole, Daniel. Let people see you for what you are. You only strengthen my argument when you do.

You've not at all summed up my argument for considering leaving the degree off his CV. You'd rather be petty than truly state my argument.

a) First and foremost, the OP is having problems getting an entry-level job, for which a degree isn't necessary.
b) I'm qualified to give this advice. He's having trouble getting hired, and I have reviewed resumes and recommended candidates for hire... which means I've rejected resumes from those who did not match the job requirements... from those who were underqualified, overqualified, undercertified, overcertified, under-degreed, and over-degreed. Further, I've seen people get into and out of the IT industry for the past 12 years. I've seen them get jobs and I've seen them struggle. I've seen them advance, and I've seen them stagnate. THIS is what makes me qualified to give advice on these matters.

But you, who have barely been in IT, think you already have it figured out. I mean this not as a put-down, Daniel. I simply point out that you disagree with these ideas just because you haven't been in IT long enough to know any better.

I'm pretty sure I've told you this before... but your opinions will likely change if and when you ever become an IT manager or senior network admin. The shoe will truly be on the other foot when you get some guy fresh out of school telling you "how it really is".

If you carefully read the response I gave to JK, you'll see that I already agreed that there could be other factors. Of all those factors, I only know for sure about one of them, so that's the one I mentioned.

Out of childish spite, yes, I did say that. You attack because you don't have a logical response, and you want to "save face". So you lash out.

No, but I could give you a link.