e-petition

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I see your point, I prefer self regulating markets as opposed to government regulation.

If enough people took their training providers to court and won then they'd have to change or write tighter contracts ?
In case one the market would self correct under an effective incentive. In case two hopefully the harshly worded contract would put off many people. It's possible that the said harsh contracts could then be made unlawful depending on their exact content.

Yes we could have some league tables, will these really behave as the sort of incentive you want ? What if they mean that many people can't take courses because they are thought of as 'too dim' and might affect results? What if they have to pay a 'dumbness' penalty like in insurance? Surely this is the opposite to the utopian IT training for all you bought into ? I'd be quite happy as i'm already trained and it would limit the number of newly trained applicants entering the job market !

This will be a barrier to entry to the market for new training providers, it will possibly up the operating costs of existing providers. What about all the training providers that exist to service businesses with one off courses ? Like I said we already have colleges / universisties that you can get this sort of information on, why not just use them instead ?

 

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Who said anything about some Utopian IT industry?? Ive seen a lot of things in my life, but any type of utopia is not one of them. Are you saying that if something is not PERFECT then it should not exist, because I'm not so naive as to believe this.

As for your other point not all people can find a uni close to where they live, and from the majority of posts that I have seen, the people who take the certs tend to be working, which means studying at night, something that most uni's/colleges don't do for these types of course.

So in some cases, TP's or self study are the only option. I would advise people to self study but this may not work for everyone.

For those who have no option but TP's, there should be some sort of information available on the TP's themselves. I'm no politician and don't pretend to know anything about politics but I do know that these types of mechanism's exist, whether Industry regulated or politically controlled. I'm definitely not saying that stats will reflect facts in all cases, but to let this put a stop to any kind of system for the protection of the consumer giving the TP's a license to do exactly what they wish.
And anyway, It is a persons RIGHT to choose where/how they study and not be forced into a choice because one of the options could result in them being ripped-off.

We can find problems with any type of regulation, but being humans and having brains means we can also try to overcome these problems to create a situation where good TP's can create a profit by being honest and up front.

Anyway....this is obviously a debate that could go on forever, so I'm going to bow out and actually do some studying.

 

I pay for my books and I read them.

I pay for my PCs and I use them.

My VMware does me for a home network.

£5000?

It's like inviting the local coke dealer in, in the hope that he will change your life.

He will.

And don't get me started on health and safety.

K's sake.

 

How so? A course that wants butts in seats won't care if you pass or fail... they'll shove you through the course, pass you whether you're worthy or not, and hope you'll buy another course... all the while, artificially inflating their passing rate.

Yes, I'm stating that they DO invent their own standards. They do *not* have to post their pass rates for vendor certification exams since that's not what they're selling... they're selling their course, which incidentally, trains you to take a vendor's exam. You're confusing "course" with "certification". They're two different animals.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that they *did* have to post their certification pass rates. If they want to be 100% sure that ALL their students pass so that the school looks good on paper... what do you think they might use, hmm? Braindumps? Don't laugh... some training providers use them TODAY, even without having to report "pass rates".

I repeat, pass rates on a course are NOT indicators of whether a training course is good!

No, a high drop-out rate could mean that the student thought they were ready for something that they simply weren't ready for... or their life circumstances caused them to bail... or their teacher is too fast... or too slow... or whatever. A high drop-out rate isn't indicative of marketing at all, sorry.

Sure, make them accountable. But Pass/Fail/Drop rates aren't the way to do it.

At some point, the student has to take some responsibility for their own actions and their own signature. If you refuse to do the research, you get what you deserve. Period. I'm gonna research ANYTHING that costs more than a hundred bucks (TVs, computer components, electronics, cars, houses, training programs, etc). And if you don't... well, that's a training program all in itself, isn't it? If you don't learn it before you get taken, you certainly learn it AFTER you get taken.

Bottom line, those who do their research will already know what the complaints are against these training companies. Those who already *don't* do research won't know to research the pass/fail/drop rates, either.

Plural of forum is forums.

 

You don't raise my hackles at all. I just think that this particular argument of yours isn't logical and doesn't make sense. Sorry, mate.

 

Ah.. thanks for clearing that up, i've been chewing that one over for years

 

And of course, there are some of us here who have used training providers and have been happy with the service...

 

QFT

I was more than happy with mine (admittedly that was five years ago and times have cheanged since then).

Maybe its because I went in with my eyes open and already worked in the IT industry - I looked at five different providers before settling on the one I chose.

 

Training companies should care if you pass or fail. If they don't, they should be made to. Regulation helps to achieve this aim. A poor training company wants bottoms on seats. A good one wants students to exit with worthwhile qualifications. Unless you are a shareholder, in which case the position is reversed. Arguing about what the word 'course' means and whether it is different to a 'certificate' or 'qualification' is, at this stage, just semantics.

Of course the pass rate isn't a perfect indicator of performance. But it is the only realistic measure we have. I accept that there is an issue about how some companies achieve higher pass rates by using braindumps and other 'cheat' techniques, but, as you point out, this is a problem we face already. I think this is an issue that should be dealt with in a different way - by inspection, perhaps, or a trade body with teeth?

Suppose one company has a consistently higher student drop-out rate than other companies. Just as a hypothetical. What does that imply? Is this a completely meaningless figure? I think probably not. Suppose one company ends each year with a lower percentage of students passing recognised (and therefore comparable) exams? What might that mean?

Are there any other hard measurements we can use that are simple to apply and have meaning? At the moment it is just a guessing game. I guessed that expensive might mean good. I failed to ask the right questions. My research was not good enough. So do I really deserve what I get?

Yes, students have a responsibility to themselves. I don't dispute it. But there are two sides to this equation. I just think that the training providers are not always squeaky clean.

In a perfect world, all providers would be compelled to provide evidence of performance, measured in relative terms to the competition, in exactly the same way as banks have to provide evidence of their interest rates and investments performance. They should have to provide it - I shouldn't need to go digging for it. And the figures would be checked for accuracy by someone independent, so I can believe them. They may not be perfect, but they are at least something.

Please note - This was never meant to be a thread about how poor I might think my training provider is. I have already said as much as the moderators will allow on that subject, and I don't really want to revisit it. This is/was a thread inviting people to consider signing an e-petition (an imperfect one) and it has become a discussion on the merits of regulation and whether companies should be made to provide evidence of performance claims or not. Being happy with your provider doesn't mean you shouldn't consider the issues being raised and doesn't mean you can't consider signing. Good companies (in my opinion) would benefit the most from this sort of regulation - we could then all be happy.

 

Why?
Problem with that is that pure pass/fail stats don't necessarily reflect the quality of the teaching or the material.

What about students who start a course with good intentions and then can't be bothered to finish it? What about people who get chronic exam nerves? What about people who are generally stupid?

You can't blame a TP if these people fail.

The best way of monitoring things is a straight forward customer satisfaction survey. It doesn't have to be complicated - when someone completes the course or whatever, just ask them for feedback.

There is of course nothing to stop the TP from only publishing the good ones, but if you have been trained by an MCT then you will have been asked for some kind of feedback anyway - although they are not obliged to make the info public.

I haven't read every post in this thread in great detail (sorry) but I assume your motivation for this is that you feel that you have personally been stitched up rather than just trying to make the world a better place?

Projects like this as an act of revenge never pan out - everyone who has had rubbish customer service/bought a dodgy car/been ripped off by a plumber etc tries it - unfortunately unless your case is backed with some sort of statistics then it is unlikely to be taken seriously.

 

Yes - My motivation for this is not pure. If I had not had the experiences I have had, I would not be doing this. I wouldn't have thought of it, probably. But I am not completely evil, either - this is not just revenge. I don't want to see too many more people in the same situation, and hope I can make a small difference. I can't do that by just sitting back and shutting up, unfortunately...

I have said about all I can say about this thing in the thread. I can't make you sign the petition. I can't even make you read the thread properly. Sign, don't sign - whatever. I admit defeat...

 

That's not the attitude if you want to have a crusade!

Rather than try and push through change by force (a possibly mis-directed force), the best thing you can do is make a valuable contribution to a forum such as this one whereby you help those who could otherwise fall foul in the same way you did - so you don't have to admit defeat at all.

The best approach to take seems to be 'hell, I made a mistake and this is what I learned from it' rather than popping up with vigilante aggression on every thread that mentions training providers.

There are a few people around here with some kind of horror story, so you are not alone! Just if you try to shove people's faces in your business (if you see what I mean...) then they normally push back.

 

Considering that the road pricing petition had almost 2 million sigs and the government took no notice of it, do you think that they will take any notice of this?

A better course of action is to write to your MP.

 

This forum was here before I made my mistake. It will be here whilst others make theirs. This forum, and others like it, well-meaning though they may be, are not the answer to this problem. What is going to happen here is what always happens. Nothing.

But yes, I agree too that a petition might not change anything. But one thing is for sure - no petition will definately make no difference at all. I will contact my MP - maybe he'll sign up. I could also (I suppose) use the freedom of information act to get the information for myself. But that won't help anyone but me...

 

...nor will they be squeaky clean if your hypothetical legislation were to pass... companies will feel compelled to "out statistic" their competition through increasingly shady means.

It might mean that a legit company helps a lower percentage of people to pass using legit training materials than a shady company who helps a higher percentage of people to pass by using braindumps. The shady company survives, and the legit company goes out of business.

In *every* instance, a training provider that uses braindumps will *always* be able to pass a higher percentage of students. You don't need to know *anything* to be able to pass the exam if you simply study the braindump. Thus, the company that uses legit training tools will *always* lose, if your hypothetical legislation would come to pass. In your perfect utopian IT training world, people would look at those pass/fail statistics, and they'd be HORRIBLY misinformed, *always* heading to the shady training provider who inflates their statistics. THIS is what I mean by trying to "out statistic" the competition, rather than focusing on what's REALLY important in IT: teaching someone to be a good tech, REGARDLESS of whether they pass the exam.

Only problem is... the tests aren't administered by themselves... and the vendors simply don't share that information. So even if it were a good idea to get exam pass rates for their students, you can't force Microsoft or Cisco to provide that information to the training centers.

But of course it is. You got screwed, and you want to take it out on them. Problem is, your solution causes FAR more damage than it fixes by forcing the GOOD training providers out of business. To heck with who gets hurt in the process, right?

What do you want: a training provider that helps you pass exams at any cost, or a training provider that helps you be a better tech? Pass/fail stats won't help you with the latter, period.

 

I have read this reply, BosonMichael. I disagree with you.

 

Oh well... lets just all sit back and do nothing heh. I don't think a company that uses braindumps would go unnoticed for very long...do you?

Microsoft, and any other company that registers a TP WOULD find out very very easily (they are not stupid you know).

The CIW course that I'm doing puts forward a list of registered TP's, are you seriously telling me that they take no interest in the methods used by those TP's?

I think you will find that they are very interested, if only to protect their own certification (people passing using braindumps would make their cert absolutely useless and put them out of business).

In short, I don't agree with ANY point that says this kind of regulation will put good TP's out of business. This is probably the weakest argument, and appears not to be thought through.

 

Well, this place isn't called CertFora.co.uk, after all!

 

No, training providers use them NOW, and they're not being caught. Typically, an instructor will tell his/her class, "Hey, here's some information that might help you pass", as they hand out a CD with the braindump info on it. It happens all the time, even in training centers that don't know what their instructors are doing... how would Microsoft know, if some of the centers themselves don't know? I'm sure some of the centers are cognizant of what they're doing, but sometimes, it's just an instructor who wants to make HIS students' pass rates look good.

As far as Microsoft pursuing braindumps to protect their certification... MS has just NOW gone after TK (and didn't punish them NEARLY hard enough).

You guys can not agree with it all you want... until you work for a training provider who provides legal training, you're speaking from a position of not knowing what you're talking about. I've worked in certification training for well over 5 years now; I know what the heck I'm talking about. Sorry, guys, I deal with this stuff daily.

 

Well, ill have to submit to your experience on that one. I just cant understand why a student would want to even pass in this way. I wonder if they ever get any benefit from it??

Its like I told my TP (when I pointed out all the mistakes in their manuals)..."Im not doing this course simply to pass an exam, I want to actually know this stuff so I'm able to actually do the job".

You do seem to be in a position to know about the kind of problems with TP's...So instead of everyone arguing about this petition, what do you think would be the best course of action?

Some action IS needed, I'm sure we ALL agree on this. What we need are less people forwarding accusations of "revenge", and more actually giving positive ideas.

Fair enough, TP's don't effect everyone, but surely even the people it doesn't effect have some feelings on the subject.