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e-petition

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by shambles, May 28, 2007.

  1. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Is your IT training company run by clowns? Are you wishing you hadn't spent all that money on getting training from a company who clearly don't care whether you pass or not? Do you wish you'd know then, what you know now?
    Sign this e-petition. If it became law, all IT training companies would be compelled to publish information about just how good (or bad) they really are...

    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/trainingstats/

    There - don't you feel better now?

    PS I haven't mentioned any particular company by name. Surely that's OK?
     
  2. Raffaz

    Raffaz Kebab Lover Gold Member

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    Signed :)
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP, MCDST, AutoCAD
    WIP: Rennovating my house
  3. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    Signed.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  4. Dazman

    Dazman New Member

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    Signed:D
     
    WIP: A+, Network+, MCP,MCSA, MCSE, CCNA.
  5. shambles

    shambles Guest

    166 views and 3 signatures? Just about 2%? Surely not?
     
  6. zimbo
    Honorary Member

    zimbo Petabyte Poster

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    Shambles dont forget there are many members like myself who studying on their own! 8)
     
    Certifications: B.Sc, MCDST & MCSA
    WIP: M.Sc - Computer Forensics
  7. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    shambles, just because you post it doesn't mean that we *have* to sign it. I live in the US and your petition is completely irrelevant to me. Also, the primary purpose of this forum *isn't* to gather signatures on petitions. Please keep that in mind.
     
    Certifications: A+ and Network+
  8. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Not signed.

    Why should a training provider care if you pass or not? It isn’t their job to phone you every day and make sure you are putting the time in to pass your certification exams. Furthermore there is plenty of information on the net in regard to training providers and alternative methods (e.g. self study) to gain IT certification. Maybe some people should think before handing over the £5k?

    Training providers should not have to publish their success rates to show the percentage of ‘students’ who have passed. I use the term loosely as this is not a University or College. Qualifications get you into Uni\College whereas ££££ is the only requirement to take a MCSE course with a training provider. 8)
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  9. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    So...A university education is FREE in Scotland, is it???
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  10. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    It was when I was at uni but not now :dry

    Still need decent qualifications to get into uni\college though. 8)
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  11. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Well, that's me well and truly told...

    I don't get your logic, Sparky, and given your tone, don't see the point in arguing with you, so I won't. But I'm glad I don't live in your world...

    tripwire45 - I had completely overlooked the fact that many users of this forum would be from elsewhere. You make a good point and I'm sorry to have bothered you with it. As for the forum not being about signatures on petitions - Agreed. But I kind of think that this thread is not completely out of context here and might happily be a part of what the forum is about... But that's not for me to decide.

    Zimbo - fair enough. What can I say?

    Dazman, stuPeas and Raffaz - thanks for signing. You might have signed because you find your training company is not up to scratch, or you might have signed out of pure altruism - I don't know, but it is appreciated...
     
  12. Headache

    Headache Gigabyte Poster

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    There's too many cowboy outfits out there. Some form of regulation is in order.

    Signed.
     
    Certifications: CCNA
    WIP: CCNP
  13. np3893

    np3893 Bit Poster

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    Some sort of actual information should be available to potential students.

    Signed.
     
    Certifications: BSc, A+, MCSA 2k3, 70-293
    WIP: 70-294, 70-298
  14. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Well, I signed it because there ARE too many con-job organisations out there fleecing people who have no hope of ever working in the IT industry. This is largely a result of the ridiculous, and seemingly all-pervasive 'Career Development Loan'. If it were made harder for these (ahem) 'training schools' to convince HM Government to permit them to apply for CDLs on behalf of 'students' (say, for instance, there were a three month cooling-off period between applying for one and actually signing the loan application, or the award of a CDL were tested based on your aptitude for passing) then it would get rid of a couple of the more infamous training providers in one fell swoop.

    However, I also have to agree with a lot of Sparky's comments. Although I am 100% behind the self-study route, I was fortunate enough to get my classroom-based courses paid for by a previous employer. I shopped around and went to about five different places before finally giving one provider my business - and they were VERY good. However, still at least half of the people who started out on my course had no business being on it and, in the end, I think about three people finished their MCSE from my group -and it took all of us almost a year.

    There are definitely a lot of con artists around, but, be honest, how many people are stupid enough to believe all the crap they're told when they sign up? Any school that had a 99% pass rate for exams in the real world would get shut down almost instantly, as either the courses they were teaching would be so basic as to be utterly worthless in the real world, or the 'students' taking those courses would have to have been cheating. Since this is usually Microsoft courses we're talking about, and the MS curriculum is, as anyone on here has sat an exam will know, extremely difficult - you could only come to one conclusion: any school which offers a 'guaranteed pass' is either allowing or even encouraging its students to cheat, or lying about their pass rate.

    As for them being required to issue a 'drop-out rate' well, thats frankly ludicrous. How can it possibly be a training provider's fault if their 'students' don't realise they're biting off more than they can chew?

    As I said - I signed the petition, but I think I'd feel better if it were worded differently.

    In any case, though I'm sure your heart is in the right place, the whole CDL-Training Provider-Getting People With No Qualifications Off The Dole And Into Study gravy train is far too valuable for anything to ever be done about it. As a result, there will continue to be plenty of poor saps like the unfortunate woman on my course who will sign up for five grand's worth of training simply because they can - despite having absolutely zero chance of ever passing a single MCP (she literally knew nothing about computers - NOTHING, and could barely speak English, having been in the country for less than two months) and definitely no chance of ever paying the loan back. She lasted two days of the 2000 Workstation course and was never seen again.
     
    Certifications: A few
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  15. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Calm down mate, Im not here for a fight! :biggrin

    Basically what I am saying it is out with the training providers’ control what standard\quality the students will be. It doesn’t stop someone with no clue about IT handing over £5k and then dropping out after week one.

    Don’t get me wrong, I do back up what you are doing but as previously stated perhaps word it differently?
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  16. Raffaz

    Raffaz Kebab Lover Gold Member

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    I signed because there are loads of dodgy companies out there, and if they are a good company then they should have nothing to hide. Oh, and im happy with my provider.:)
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP, MCDST, AutoCAD
    WIP: Rennovating my house
  17. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    I live in Australia so it doesn't apply to me. However, i support, in principle any cause that has at it's heart, the intention of improving the regulation of IT training providers - I have seen far too many tales of woe not to be affected in some way.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  18. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    I get your point Sparky, but you seem to be forgetting something. Fair enough, if the student is just "thick", then that is not the training providers fault. You seem to be saying that the only possible reason a training providers figures would show a high drop-out or low pass rate is due to the quality of the student. Personally mate..that p-ss-s me right off!!!

    I have spent hours actually correcting my own course material because allot of it was plain incorrect!!! Phoning my tutors produced the wrong answers more that 80% of the time. It was not until I pushed for a refund that they admitted that the tutors I spoke to were actually wrong, and that I should have been referred to the "next-level" of tutors. These tutors actually DO know what they are talking about, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to put up with errors on every other page of my course manual!!!

    It seem most people have not spotted these mistakes but passed the exams anyway (which seems to contradict your initial point entirely).

    The point I'm making (in a long winded way), is that it is the QUALITY of the support that these companies offer that should be published. A high drop out rate need not indicate an unintelligent person: It could just as easily indicate a student who is unhappy with the service provided. :dry
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  19. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    StuPeas, please, if you are feeling angry, that is not the time to post a response.. wait until you have calmed down a bit.

    All the points made by you both are valid ones.. there is no need to ruffle anyones feathers - we are all on the same team here :wink:
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  20. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Not signed... and even if I lived in the UK, I'd have not signed it.

    Tell me this... if I signed 100 people to take my insanely difficult training class... and 90 of them couldn't handle it... even if I'm the best training provider in the world, my statistics wouldn't show it. When prospective students see those stats, they'd no longer take my training... and you'd be out a quality training provider.

    Secondly, if you force training providers to provide 'Begin', 'Pass', 'Fail' and 'Do Not Complete' statistics, the shady training companies will simply inflate their pass rates by passing folks who have no business passing in the first place.

    There's absolutely *no* correlation between passing a course and getting a high-quality education. Period.

    Hey, if you guys want to sign, that's your business... but just realize the implications of your actions before you do it. You could very well be putting the "good guys" out of business, leaving only the "shady" ones.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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