1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Do people have unreasonable expectations?

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by kevicho, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

    1,219
    58
    116
    Move if in the wrong place, but do other people think that the timescales people set are a bit unreasonable?

    I get the impression that people think that just because they have been reading A+ and worked for a couple of weeks in first line support, they suddenly think they are in a position to run networks?

    This is probably a slight exaggeration, but i dont think training providers help, with their unrealistic advertising.

    When we think about it there are so many things to consider in IT, simple desktop support requires knowledge of and skills relating too(and not limited to):

    PC Hardware
    Peripheral hardware (such as printers scanners pdas (ipods) etc)
    Operating systems
    Office/email applications
    web browser advice, configuration (this helps keep dodgy things getting on your network)

    then we look at issues such as malware removal, virus scanning, spam blocking, dealing with people (ie talking to clueless (l)users),

    Networking (knowing the difference between RJ45/RJ11), hubs, switches, protocols and i could go on all day.

    This is before we get to servers, and ive not started on permissions, encyption and other security methods!

    This is a lot to take in, and to get practical experience it takes hard work, and also determination to get the right job (even if underpaid)

    Then ideally you should be interested in sites like this, el reg/enquirer, also microsofts various sites or linux distro and various news sites to keep up to date, and also being aware of whats going on in the virus/malware world.

    Anyone agree? (this is the tip of the iceberg lol)
     
    Certifications: A+, Net+, MCSA Server 2003, 2008, Windows XP & 7 , ITIL V3 Foundation
    WIP: CCNA Renewal
  2. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

    14,283
    254
    329
    You are correct but it's not just with training providers that people get unrealistic expectations.

    When I was at uni that was a time when there was big money being paid to people in IT especially in the web design sector (.com boom). Also when I was at uni it was basically drummed into us that we would start off on a minimum wage of £18k but it could be upto 25k. Whilst some people can get lucky most people aren't and have to start of at the bottom regardless of wether they have a degree or not.

    I stopped looking for IT jobs for a few years whilst I concentrated on my debts but before I did I was always applying for jobs that I now realise were far beyond my experience level.

    Training providers, colleges, schools, universities etc may try and steer you in the correct direction but at the end of the day as long as they get your money they are not bothered what happens to you after you have finished with them.

    As with people expecting to move on after a few weeks or months then they need a reality check, you need to build up a solid foundation in your first disciplin (i.e support) before getting experience in another (i.e networks).
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  3. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

    1,562
    24
    79
    To add to GBL’s point that it’s not just the trainers…
    Remember yourself as a teenager. Recall that you knew everything. Guidance or advice from others was useless because you already knew everything worth knowing. It may not be true for all teens, but pretty close I’d say.

    Well, that’s exists in every part of society (especially IT) with junior and some intermediate folks. The less one knows, the more they think they know. As one learns and gains more experience do they realize how much they don’t know. That’s when the light turns on :idea and they understand there’s always another page to be read.

    That’s why I’m not normally big on the whole ‘guru’ title.

    Edit: Unless you’re talking about the guru named BosonMichael (I wanted to get a line in before someone else did. It was already pointed to out to me once before) :biggrin
     
  4. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,136
    462
    374
    There's always more to learn... even for me (especially for me!). In fact, I'm working right now on learning (in some cases, re-learning) the ins and outs of PIM.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  5. GiddyG

    GiddyG Terabyte Poster Gold Member

    2,471
    42
    140
    I suppose another big 'issue', on top of the fact that people want to earn lots of money quickly, is that networking is seen as sexy, whereas normal PC support is seen as entry level, and a step that people want to move from as quickly as possible.

    My personal opinion is that 'entry level' is a very unfortunate term that is used to describe work that can very often be interesting, and is vital to the smooth running of any business worth its salt.
     
  6. neutralhills

    neutralhills Kilobyte Poster

    366
    28
    64
    I used to run networks, but I've been out of it for almost four years now and I'd not even think of taking a run at that these days. It takes a while to get there and once you're there, it's like running on a treadmill: stop and you get thrown off. I estimate it would take me a year and a half of study and working my way back up to get to the point where I could administer Exchange and AD competently again. I wouldn't even think of going near a PIX firewall or ISA server (used to work with those too) as I've forgotten most everything important I needed to know.

    So, for me, with this as my background, I'm not going to go from where I am now (VERY advanced computer repair tech) to running a large network in the next year and a half. No way, no how.
     
    Certifications: Lots.
    WIP: Upgrading MS certs
  7. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

    3,120
    51
    154
    Unfortunately, people often times do have unreasonable expectations and is not just the IT field only.

    However, IT changes frequently and hence the need to keep up to date or rather try to keep up with the changes to enable one become marketable. All in all am still learning and willing to learn some more and would not swap career fields for anything other than working with computers:)
     
    Certifications: MCSE: 2003, MCSA: 2003 Messaging, MCP, HNC BIT, ITIL Fdn V3, SDI Fdn, VCP 4 & VCP 5
    WIP: MCTS:70-236, PowerShell
  8. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

    1,219
    58
    116
    So called firstline support is vital (depends what you mean by first line) for training you to think on your feet, remember what you have learned and use google quickly lol
     
    Certifications: A+, Net+, MCSA Server 2003, 2008, Windows XP & 7 , ITIL V3 Foundation
    WIP: CCNA Renewal
  9. sjf1978

    sjf1978 Bit Poster

    12
    0
    2
    I find the more I learn the more there is to learn... I mean it's like a winding road that sometimes even goes back on itself with cross over's between. To be fair sometimes I think IT wages are low for the knowledge you have to acquire when compared to other professions that require far less effort for the same amount. The worse for me is recruitment staff that don't know the difference between a MCP and MCSE or state the CISSP as a Cisco qualification... I find it kind of insulting to the hard work you put in...

    As for the expectations of others.... I think sometimes people do, but that's what drives them on. If its junior staff perhaps you should try to help and not have a negative attitude that your A+ is first step. Too much of the IT god syndrome about from senior staff...

    As for timescales its impossible to say... I mean some clever people can pass the lawyer bar exam in a very short time... everyone learns at different pace.
     
  10. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

    1,562
    24
    79
    Is that still prevalent? Maybe I’m just in an environment where I don’t see it, or… maybe I’m part of the dark side that's enforcing it. :hhhmmm :twisted:
     
  11. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,136
    462
    374
    Actually... it's too much of the IT god syndrome from people who have never worked in IT before. :rolleyes:

    Until you've seen the damage that an inexperienced administrator can do, you simply won't understand it.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  12. sjf1978

    sjf1978 Bit Poster

    12
    0
    2
    Well keeps you on your toes.... hey if you're using delegation, correct permissions and with your hand of wisdom they should be fine Michael. (no comments please!) Plus you've got your procedures to recover in check :)

    oh and Sunn "I find your lack of faith disturbing" :twisted: (the imperial march playing in my mind)

    Oh yes, ok a little bit of knowledge in a user can be dangerous (ie well my son said.... his at uni doing computer blah!!!)
     
  13. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,136
    462
    374
    You assume that the person in charge will have a hand of wisdom to provide. 8) Far too often, it's someone who doesn't know any better hiring... someone who doesn't know any better.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  14. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

    3,661
    106
    167
    I like your analogy for knowledge in IT.

    To me IT knowledge is a puzzle shaped like a dynamically sized pyramid. When you first start out your pyramid of knowledge is very small, and you have trouble figuring out how the pieces of knowledge you have fit together. The more you learn the easier it becomes to fit the pieces the together just like it is with a cardboard puzzle once you have the outside edge of the puzzle built. However, the IT knowledge pyramid keeps growing as you learn more because the more you learn the more you see that need to know, so there are always holes in the puzzle that need to be filled.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  15. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

    1,562
    24
    79
    From a knowledge perspective...
    Junior staff knows very little but sees only a small piece of the pyramid and conclude they know a lot about IT.

    Intermediate members know more (tech) than the junior, but also sees the outline of a bigger pyramid but don’t know how to tackle the size (where to get information).

    The senior folks are the ones that know quite a bit tech and business matters (from experience) and aren’t intimidated by new challenges. They know how to research and find results to apply in the real world.

    Bring on the pyramid 8)
     
  16. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,136
    462
    374
    In truth, junior staff does see the next level and usually thinks, "I can do that - why won't they let me do that job? Man... I hate this front line stuff... I'm not learning ANYTHING."
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  17. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

    3,661
    106
    167
    I'd agree, but add one more description to both intermediate and senior levels. Both, should anyway, be able to generalize from their experience enough so that they can figure the solution to problems when no amount of Googling will give you the result you want.

    I consider myself a noob experience-wise, but yet understand the business implications because of my age and years of watching businesses operate. I'm unafraid of challenges, and like it when I can figure out a solution for something I completely fail of being able to Google.

    We have a web application at work that runs on one of our old servers but would always fail on our Debian installs. It always failed with no errors too. Well, I finally figured out the solution but it had to come from my own head as to how to implement it. I couldn't find anything about how to implement the solution on the internet, and I spent days searching forums, mailing lists, Google results, etc.... There just were no howto's of any kind.

    The solution involved keeping as much as I can of Debian's binary packages for the LAMP stack to keep system updating and patching as painless as possible, and integrating a custom compilation of PHP5 in with those systems to activate some areas of PHP5 that Debian doesn't in their binary packages.

    It was an interesting problem and solution to work through.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  18. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

    1,562
    24
    79
    Maybe :hhhmmm
    I just don't see Junior staff saying "I'm not learning...". I think they see the dollars with a different job and say "I can do that! I should be making crazy $$$".

    Either way the perspective from a junior role can be sheltered. Look at all the people coming out saying they want to be a MCSE or CCIE within 8-months or someother short time-frame.
     
  19. sunn

    sunn Gigabyte Poster

    1,562
    24
    79
    Obviously (from what I know) there's no fixed mould for what a each category (junior, int, sr) consists of. Saying that, what ffreeloader described above is (in my opionion) how Sr. Admin starts to think. Come up with solutions that aren't in a text book (at least none that you can find) :blink.
     
  20. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

    10,189
    296
    319
    So very true.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve worked with a few 1st line support guys who were very enthusiastic and wanted to progress, I have no problem with that. :thumbleft

    I do have a problem with someone who is barely into their IT career *telling* me what I should be doing because my way is *not quite right*. It’s not even a suggestion in most cases, it’s more like “You should be doing it this way... blah blah” :blink

    <sigh>

    The biggest wake up call is when you are the *only* person responsible for a network. When it goes down, you have to fix it, no-one else. Don’t think Googling “failed RAID container, system will not boot” is going to help. :biggrin
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010

Share This Page

Loading...