1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

CITP's Rule!

Discussion in 'Professional Associations' started by pete.grant, Aug 8, 2009.

  1. pete.grant

    pete.grant Byte Poster

    150
    9
    37
    There was a really interesting article in this week's edition of Computing Magazine regarding BCS' intent on trying to get employers to place more recognition in CITP. They claim that in doing so, companies will be less likely to 'get into trouble' as it were by over-running on projects and consequently spending more money than intended (amongst other things).

    I would love to attain CITP one day but the cynic in me cannot help that the BCS are only doing this to try and increase their member numbers and in turn generate more revenue. Someone from the IET also commented on the issue, plugging the IET's chartered designation (CEng).

    I'd be interested to hear other peoples opinions.....
     
    Certifications: A+ IT Technician, CCENT, CEH, CPTS, CIW Security Analyst, ITIL v3 Foundation, Master CIW Administrator, MCITP (Windows Server 2008:SA), MCSA on Windows Server 2008, MCSA:Security on Windows Server 2003, MCTS (70-648, 70-652), Network+, SCNS, Security+, Server+
  2. UKDarkstar
    Honorary Member

    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

    3,477
    121
    184
    If you read some of my other BCS posts you'll see that I've hinted there are big moves afoot to really get CITP recognised and some changes to come will help that and address the concernes that have been raised by Members. It's nothing to do with revenue as the BCS is a Registered Charity with a Trustee Board and they have to be very careful about making "profit".

    You'll also see I was somewhat disenchanted with the IET's attitude to my tentative membership enquiry and so, personally, I don't see them as a viable alternative (for me). As for CEng - so what ?! Can't say I would really see this as being appropriate for some areas of IT such as service management etc. although I do appreciate that it is appropriate in some areas such as software engineering or very advanced network infrastructure design.

    I'm sure you'll see in the changes coming over the next 18 months that the BCS will be repositioned to be regarded as the appropriate body for IT professionals and that the Chartered award will be regarded much more highly.
     
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
    WIP: CMALT (about to submit), DTLLS (on hold until 2012)
  3. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    10,831
    357
    341
    The whole joint study stated that Chartered professionals regardless of if it was CEng or CITP, should be used as they had be assessed and certified by assessment, the skills needed. I posted about it here.

    The thing is that certifications are pass/failed by an exam, while professional registration (CEng/CITP) is assessed and awarded. It can also be taken away. Whereas a MCSE, MCITP, CCNA, CCNP, etc isn't unless caught using braindumps.

    Who is to say if this is wrong or right? But with the amount of projects either failing, going over budget, etc... Something has to be done.

    -Ken
     
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  4. pete.grant

    pete.grant Byte Poster

    150
    9
    37
    The very same article did metion the forthcoming 'changes' within the BCS and I have read previous posts by you regarding this but I didn't mention it as you have stated on previous posts that you are restricted from giving certain information.

    Don't get me wrong, I am very Pro BCS and really love being a member but to anyone who isn't a member, that artricle could have read that the BCS were only interested in increasing their member base. Are you able to say whether these 'changes' will affect MBCS members UKDarkstar?
     
    Certifications: A+ IT Technician, CCENT, CEH, CPTS, CIW Security Analyst, ITIL v3 Foundation, Master CIW Administrator, MCITP (Windows Server 2008:SA), MCSA on Windows Server 2008, MCSA:Security on Windows Server 2003, MCTS (70-648, 70-652), Network+, SCNS, Security+, Server+
  5. UKDarkstar
    Honorary Member

    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

    3,477
    121
    184
    There are all sorts of things in the offing. I don't know in what order they are being implemented; Committee members attending the last convention were just told they would start this September and roll out over the next 18 months.

    Non-Members obviously have not been sent material that Members have although I appreciate there was, perhaps, not much "meat" on what was said.

    Just a few more weeks to wait :biggrin
     
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
    WIP: CMALT (about to submit), DTLLS (on hold until 2012)
  6. mrmuesli

    mrmuesli Bit Poster

    10
    1
    10
    I got awarded my CITP status today - really chuffed, no extra interview or anything - they didn't contact me or my supporter (though I had done an interview recently with ISEB for my BA diploma)
    One of my friends applied last week and he has been given option to postpone his application until the new CITP launches or progress with existing version now
     
    Certifications: see auto sig
  7. Qs

    Qs Semi-Honorary Member Gold Member

    3,081
    70
    171
    Personally, I'm still a cynic. Can't help it. When CITP starts appearing as a desirable certification on jobs that I'm interested in then I'll be after it like a shot. Plus I may need to upgrade my HND to a BSc for one of the CITP pre-reqs (Can anyone confirm this? I'm lazy.)

    Until then I'll keep my annual subcription fee thank you very much, and spend it on self-study books, beer and loose women.

    My two cents.

    Qs
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSA (2008), MCITP: EA, MCITP: SA, MCSE: 2003, MCSA: 2003, MCITP: EDA7, MCITP: EDST7, MCITP: EST Vista, MCTS: Exh 2010, MCTS:ServerVirt, MCTS: SCCM07 & SCCM2012, MCTS: SCOM07, MCTS: Win7Conf, MCTS: VistaConf, MCDST, MCP, MBCS, HND: Applied IT, ITIL v3: Foundation, CCA
  8. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

    4,009
    186
    209
    I get what you're trying to get at young 'un, really I do lol. But how much do you think CITP accreditation actually costs? How much
    do you think you'd actually get for that price? lol.

    The other thing is, that CITP status isn't a certification.

    I'll put it to you in these terms: do you think someone could braindump to CITP?

    You've said:

    Will this be the fabled tenth of never? You're about to start a job that is meant to see you progress to infrastructure manager in 2 years time. You want to start getting to the levels where jobs come and find you, not you looking for jobs.

    Becoming a BCS member - and especially eventually CITP - will afford you the networking opportunities with people in the same fields that you just wouldn't find elsewhere. This is where you start getting yourself known. Remember the old adage - it's often not what you know, but who you know.

    It's not a very big ask, cost-wise. So I think you're being very unrealistic in terms of what you're comparing it to. I only pay £55 per YEAR - as I am only AMBCS. I think with your experience, you'd be MBCS maybe - it's not a bank breaker :wink:
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  9. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    10,831
    357
    341
    Congrats on the achievement :)

    While I understand where you're coming from, I also have to point out that anything new or newish, it takes a while for it to filter down. Remember in the 90's when NVQ were re-released into what they are now or when MBA's were introduced? No-one knew what they were, let alone had them in job adverts. The same thing was true with the MCSE (now look at it, it's a buzz word from entry level jobs up to jobs that it was meant for).

    Besides, the way I see it CITP is not really a certification as such like the MCSE, it's more of a professional registration/accreditation like the CEng. Another thing to consider is that the CITP will not be listed on alot of jobs simply because of the level/type of work that the person will doing - at least level 5 of the SFIA which is pretty high. Lets face it not all techs would make it to the ICTTech from the ECUK which is based on level 3 of the SFIA, let alone the CITP.

    -Ken
     
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  10. jk2447

    jk2447 Petabyte Poster Moderator

    5,483
    354
    249
    Welcome to the CITP club MrMuesli :D

    I think I must of got picked on having to sit an online interview with 2 high up BCS dudes. Good job I'm a bad ass mysterious mother or I wouldn't of got mine :lol: Seriously tho very well done, I know you wanted to gain this and as you know, its very far from easy! Jim
     
    Certifications: BSc (Hons), HND IT, HND Computing, ITIL-F, MBCS CITP, MCP (270,290,291,293,294,298,299,410,411,412) MCTS (401,620,624,652) MCSA:Security, MCSE: Security, Security+, CPTS, VCP4, CCA (XenApp6.5), MCSA 2012, VCP5, VCP6-NV
  11. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

    1,432
    60
    107
    Physically loose? :twisted:
     
    Certifications: MCITP:VA, MCITP:EA, MCDST, MCTS, MCITP:EST7, MCITP:SA, PRINCE2, ITILv3
  12. jsnorth

    jsnorth Bit Poster

    10
    0
    12
    I'm a new member and thought I'd start with a whinge.

    The problems that I've had with any certifications are that senior, respected people in companies who don't appreciate certifications (or are bitter about them) can create a negative view of certification and people may not do them because of that.
    Another problem is that in a recession, companies may not see certification as important and won't fund them or view obtained certification as worthy of reward.
    Finally, companies turn to internal training to support their own systems which leads to development "in-breeding".

    All of these cause a negative view of certification as people have to invest their own money into something which is of unmeasurable value. Companies lose out and look to other ways to compensate e.g. off-shore. The whole thing is a cycle of problems. This is a whinge based on experience.

    And now with the CITP changing, is there a risk that existing CITP's in companies may not respect the effort put in by new CITP's and possibly limit their value.

    Cheers.
     
    Certifications: BEng, ISEB SD Dip, TOGAF 8.1.1
    WIP: MCTS, CCDA, ISEB BA Dip
  13. UKDarkstar
    Honorary Member

    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

    3,477
    121
    184
    I disagree with your CITP comment - if anything newer CITP's who have had to be assessed may feel "superior" to those of us who haven't BUT that isn't the real issue.

    New CITP's have to have their certificate of competancy. Existing CITP's don't have to have this to retain the membership grade and post-nominals but may apply if they wish.

    Apart from that there is the whole recognition issue (which BCS is working on) to get companies to recognise CITP.

    As to your other comments re certs in general there may be many reasons why individuals or companies respect or ignore certs - probably best for a sep thread or a RL debate with some alcohol ! :p
     
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
    WIP: CMALT (about to submit), DTLLS (on hold until 2012)
  14. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    10,831
    357
    341
    You're always going to get that, where some companies do not invest in their staff, recession or not.

    I very much doubt that existing CITP's will not respect the effect put "new" CITP's, simply because us "old-timers" help shaped the new CITP program. And the "new" CITP's in turn should realise that.

    -Ken
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  15. jsnorth

    jsnorth Bit Poster

    10
    0
    12
    I hope to do the new one soon. It will be a challenge, having reviewed the requirements but my experience should be ok. I'm just aware that it is time and money (I have to pay for it).

    I'm concerned that my employer's HR teams will not understand the CITP effort and not reward someone for it.

    So I'd be doing it for a sense of achievement + pride. Yes, I know that these days, getting a qualification does not mean pay rise but it will require some effort on my part that I would like to be rewarded.
     
    Certifications: BEng, ISEB SD Dip, TOGAF 8.1.1
    WIP: MCTS, CCDA, ISEB BA Dip
  16. UKDarkstar
    Honorary Member

    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

    3,477
    121
    184
    I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here :blink

    You do understand that CITP is Chartered IT Professional. It is an award given based on experience and an interview with a competancy test. There is no study course or anything for it.
     
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
    WIP: CMALT (about to submit), DTLLS (on hold until 2012)
  17. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    10,831
    357
    341
    To achieve the CITP, you will already be working at a certain level, having certain responsibilities, etc... The CITP is one of the ways the BCS is aligning the IT industry with other professions like doctors, lawyers, accountants, surveyors, etc. The CITP also shows/demonstrates this to others.

    Not sure why HR would reward you for doing your own job already, unless it is specifically implied or you took on more responsibilities. I mean I wasn't rewarded for gaining the CITP, as I was already doing the job.

    Unless I'm missing something?

    -Ken
     
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  18. jsnorth

    jsnorth Bit Poster

    10
    0
    12
    I agree with what you've said, and the description of the CITP. I think my thoughts are not leaving my head properly.

    If your employer has a list of your skills and regular reviews document your achievements, what would be gained by spending time doing the paperwork, sitting the exam and the interview for the CITP? Who do you need to demonstrate your skills to?

    If "others" is a customer and your employer uses your CITP to demonstrate competance to the customer then I think you deserve something for your effort?

    Through my work with the BCS locally, we are seeing a lack of IT qualifications after degree level. Employers simply do not need to recognise skills formally. Their own internal systems record and rate skills and competance. This leads to employees not pursuing further qualifications.

    Maybe I'm just dealing with the wrong employers.
     
    Certifications: BEng, ISEB SD Dip, TOGAF 8.1.1
    WIP: MCTS, CCDA, ISEB BA Dip
  19. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    10,831
    357
    341
    What you would gain? Well for starters a credential that implies that you work up to what a Masters degree would imply (but don't confuse academic with professional). Recognition of working at that level.

    Well, your colleagues, customers/clients, your peers in other industries. Believe it or not alot of people do not see IT as a proper professional, but more of a necessary evil.

    While it would be great to be awarded a bonus/prize/award every time a person achieved something, personally I don't think that it would be sustainable in the long run. Where would you start? Where would you end?

    In an ideal world, we would all be awarded something for our efforts, however in the real world it doesn't always happen, especially in this climate - the recession. If you're lucky your organisation/company will assist you in your application and may even pay your BCS CITP fees/dues. However it really is down to the individual organisation.

    After degree level, I assume the BSc/BA, well there's the PGCert/PGDip/Master's and above on the academic side. On the vocational side there's the NVQ 5, the CITP, up until recently there was the GCGI & MCGI from C&G's. On the professional certification route, there's the CCIE from Cisco, the MCA from Microsoft, etc...

    I have to say that's a general statement, I use to be a part-time lecturer at the local college delivering Microsoft courses up to MCSE level, just under half of the students in almost every module were sent by their company to gain the qualification, some were self-funded and some were there in order to get qualified to get into the IT industry (MCDST/70-270/70-290 level).

    Plus also, in the past when I've applied for (or seen) higher level jobs, they have always specified:

    1. Essential degree, desirable Master's or equivalent
    2. MCSE/CCNP, etc (dependant on what the job entailed)
    3. Membership into a professional body - desirable (however I have seen a couple stating CITP)

    Maybe, there are alot of companies that do not invest in their staff, there are also some companies that do...

    Like I've stated before, I'm pro the BCS and pro the CITP, and I do support the progression of the IT profession. But I don't want anyone to for the CITP and have an idea of what is going to happen if they gain the it, then once they gain it nothing happens. A person may just then say it isn't worth it and just dump it, which would have a negative effect on the CITP.

    Hopefully, I've put this across in an understandable format :blink

    -Ken
     
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  20. jsnorth

    jsnorth Bit Poster

    10
    0
    12
    Thanks for the discussion.

    BTW: I did not mean that there were a lack of qualifications available - I meant that there was a lack of people with those qualifications because (from general feedback) they did not feel it important. The reason was that they felt employers did not value it.

    So perhaps the problem is - should employers encourage it? should they even have to?
     
    Certifications: BEng, ISEB SD Dip, TOGAF 8.1.1
    WIP: MCTS, CCDA, ISEB BA Dip

Share This Page

Loading...