CCNA qualified seeking next step advice please...

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Employer in my example...

My comment re friends/colleagues is an example of how difficult it can be to get into networking... I think you're being slightly anti. I am trying to put across an opinion nicely...

Listen... without being funny, I have had 19 years in IT, from systems admin, IT management, networking, project managment, service management, test management, build management, people management...

If you think I'm not talking from a position of 'having been there' then that's fine... all I can say is that I am talking from a position of 'having been there', and working with other people who have been there too.

It is not easy in any job, and networking will not be easy. Best to start at a level where lack of experience will not be a hinderence, and he can learn the basic stuff beofre moving on up. However, unless he is billy whizz, the CCNA will have expired and he will need to recertify anyway... and he may still not be working with CISCO kit, at lest not at the level he needs to for CCNA.

If he's been doing 1st line, and moves to 2nd line, he may be looking at desktop OS support anyway, hence the commetn re the MCDST.

If he goes for a junior network job (his choice and gets it) then great! He asked for advice... I gave it. You may not agree with it, but there it is.

 

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So you made up an employer to support your argument? Obvously any employer may decide he wants you to do MS stuff, but then whats he doing hiring someone who is not looking to do MS stuff?

It can be difficult to get into many positions if you are not good enough/competition is high. Do we just not try for these positions because they are difficult?

My old boss had around the same amount of years but knew very little....not remotely saying you are the same, it just doesn't mean very much.

CCNA is not that high a level of networking. Again, i agree moving into a position where lack of experience will not be a hinderence. I don't know of a position where having the CCNA knowledge would be a hinderence though.

 

Yeah... you caught me out <makes note not to use examples in fuutre>

I never said don't try... what I said was employers tend to be put off by lack of experience... you have a different point of view... I tend to be realistic. I don't want the guy thinking he can walk into a job networking next week just by showing his CCNA cert as he walks through the door.

Well, you've never worked with or for me, so you wouldn't know.

That's a matter of opinion...

It'll happen... maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but sometime...

 

Examples are fine, but you just made up a scenario which made the CCNA of no use.

You could of said "what if the employer wants you to sit a butchery course" in the same way you used MS.

Employers are put off by lack of experience for positions which require it. If i am applying for a junior/trainee networking role, why would they be put off by someone with the CCNA?

I don't see any point where he thought he was going to walk into ANY networking job.

Why is the CCNA level a matter of opinion? It was the bottom Cisco cert up until they added the CCENT to bridge it, there are tons above above it. It covers completely basic IT information as well some not so basic things. It's definately not "high-level".

 

Ever wondered why the likes of Aldi and Lidl are constantly recruiting for store and area managers?

Area manager on £40k with a car might sound like a nice deal.
Then you realise that every morning at 7 you have to be at one of your stores checking what they're up to, then at another at 6 in the evening to make sure they're locking up properly.

Then you're covering for a manager who's on holiday and probably unloading stock because it's only you and a cashier in the store. Then you get chewed out over the till shorts and wastage.

But the real difference between IT and retail is that apart from a bit of 'common' and some graft, you don't actually need any specific skills or experience to work in retail. You can learn to use a till in an hour or so, how to lift something heavy in ten minutes.

If the tills go down, you call helpdesk and pull a box of calculators and carbonated pads out from under the desk.

IT is a bit of an odd bag really because I can't think of another industry where you can read a couple of books, pass an exam and somehow feel that it qualifies you to work at some kind of higher level with kit you've never seen in real life before.

There are some examples of where you don't necessarily have to start at the bottom, but as a rule it's a good place to start.

 

No, but it's the case about 99% of the time. If you go into your job search expecting to be that lucky 1%, then I'd say that threre's a 99% chance that you'll be disappointed.

Totally different being a tech. I'd compare it more to being a surgeon. No hospital is gonna allow some dude who has only read books to cut open a patient solo without having worked their way up.

What company in their right minds would hire someone without experience to do more than first-line support?

Yes, you're right that by the time he gets into position to use that knowledge, he will have forgotten most of it (regardless when the certification expires). But your advice doesn't automagically enable him to get a higher-level job without the experience to go with it. He'll be competing for those jobs against people who DO have experience... so who do you think will get the job, the guy with a cert or the guy with experience?

I appreciate that you're trying to help him out, but your advice isn't gonna do him any good in getting a higher-level job.

Then why do you insist on disagreeing with the advice of those who HAVE used that knowledge in a real-world environment?

What is there to lose? Nothing, if you don't mind beating your head against a wall with few results to show for it! Hey, you never know, you MIGHT get lucky! Just please, don't count on the CCNA magically opening doors for you - it simply doesn't work like that in IT anymore.

And when you do decide to start applying for lower-level jobs, I'd recommend you take that CCNA off your CV. Otherwise, you'll look way overqualified for the position, thus making you unattractive to employers. Don't believe me? Take a look throughout the forum and you'll see several cases that illustrate my point.

 

Not really, no. Most people get into network support by working their way up into server administration and network administration.

Then you're recommending that he apply for the wrong jobs. He'll be passed over in favor of people who have experience.

 

Just because it's the bottom Cisco cert doesn't mean it's a certification for the bottom level of IT candidates.

The CCENT does NOT cover "completely basic IT information". Dude, I've been writing practice exams for years, and I was a network admin for years before that... and I'm here to tell you that if you truly believe that entry-level techs are allowed to upgrade the IOS on company routers (one of the many topics on the CCENT), then you haven't worked in IT long enough to know better, and your advice does more harm than good.

 

I think that to get some sort of balance, it's important to remember that any kind of training or personal development is good.

The fact that the OP has done a CCNA course is fine, but it's not something he should lead with.
Despite not being able to back it up with experience doesn't mean he won't have learned some useful skills and picked up some knowledge.

CVs and application forms often have spaces for training courses etc, so I don't think there's any harm in saying there that you did a one week CCNA course or whatever.

But I wouldn't stick it on the top of your CV or consider applying for jobs that specify a CCNA is required.

Consider it an added bonus.

 

Yes, because I wouldn't want him to think he could walk through the door flashing his shiny cert saying I am a CCNA... hire me! If he is sensible he will use what he has learnt from the A+ and apply that in a 1st line role.

Maybe they feel that someone with CCNA is more knowledgable than someone in junior networking role?

Nor do I. I was saying that I didn't want him thinking he could just because he has the CCNA.

Don't knock it. People work damn hard to achieve it. What is bottom to you is two, three or maybe even more certs up for others.

 

Hi guys

Many thanks for your advice and its a nice discussion . I would like to highlight couple of points please :

If I took off my CCNA from my CV , then I believe my values would be much less since I dont have Microsoft Certification .
Secondly, I think having the CCNA is an advantage and evidence of having some real good knowledge about Networking which might contribute to the role any way.
If the CCNA does not count as having enough skills to do the job in the eye of an employer , then what is the harm of having it oin the side .

on the otherhind, I studied hard not for the purpose ogf getting certified but to have a good and solid knowledge to use in real life . I know that the real life job might be different but I for example did 90% of the practical work using the packet tracer or the actuial lab and that include the challenging ones . Further more , I was thinking even to start practising again using the packet tracer to keep my brain fit with Cisco stuff . Am I wrong of going to that far ?

I understand that having the certificate does not mean that you can do the job especially in networking area. However, It used be the case like some companies take someone on board and let him do some of the job and thats as not paid job , in other words just to provide him with work experience for , say 6 months and then they take him as an employed person .

I am trying or thinking to try the same if that applicable or realistic , however if you think I am over a bit then please wake me up !

I am planning to contact some Cisco Business partners and apply for work experience at their company. Would that be a good idea?
if the things seams not very realistic , please advise me otherwise .
If the thing did not work , then I would need to do may be further study like MCSA or MCITP .
Because everytime I look at adverts , it seams always the case that they need some work experience especially on servers which I dont have , so how can I get a 1st line support then ?
I would appreciate it again if some body could discuss these points with me or even even be more specific .
To me I would welcome an opportunity to get my foot on the door.

Many thanks again

Hani

 

Because you'll look overqualified to an entry-level employer, and thus, a flight risk... leaving the employer to find, hire, and train someone all over again when you leave. So employers are likely to pass you over, particularly when the CCNA has nothing to do with entry-level jobs.

Companies do sometimes take on volunteers or interns for entry-level positions... but not for router administration positions. So you're not going to get that Cisco router experience by taking an unpaid gig somewhere.

If my previous posts haven't woken you up by now, I fear you may be in a coma!

Sure, you might get lucky. But is it realistic to expect a job from them? Unfortunately, no.

It doesn't seem realistic.

More upper-level certifications aren't going to help the situation any. If anything, it'll compound the problem by making you even more overcertified.

Keep in mind that certifications aren't a shortcut for experience. Certification is designed to validate experience you already have. Without experience, higher-level certifications (such as the CCNA and MCSA) aren't going to do you much good.

I'd recommend that you pursue the A+, Network+, and MCDST - all solid, entry-level certifications - and find you an entry-level job. Or, continue down the path you're going down - the choice is yours. I simply give you advice based on my years of experience. You can ignore it or you can follow it - doesn't matter to me.

Server admin jobs aren't 1st line support jobs. You get a 1st line support job by applying for a 1st line support job, not by applying for a server admin job. Or a router admin job, or a security admin job, or a network designer job... none of those are entry-level jobs. Entry-level jobs typically include helpdesk tech, field service tech, PC repair tech, and desktop support tech jobs.

 

Hi han.net,

I very rarely post on the forum but i felt compelled to after reading your story.

I am/was in the exact same position as you, i left university with my CCNA certification aswell. I haven't had any luck finding a junior role in the networking field in my area. I landed a job last month though on a support desk, this role is giving me experience on handling day to day problems that users are experiencing and its giving me the 'real world' experience. As well as that im going out of the office with some of the technical consultants i work with where im gaining experience with Riverbed technologies, vmware and little bits of CISCO.

Id recommend going for a support desk job to start off with even if it is to gain some experience, after 9-12 months try again for a networking role. Who knows you might land one

Good luck with everthing.

 

Hodgey

Thanks for sharing, and congrats on getting that job.

John

 

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I'd recommend that you pursue the A+, Network+, and MCDST - all solid, entry-level certifications - and find you an entry-level job. Or, continue down the path you're going down - the choice is yours. I simply give you advice based on my years of experience. You can ignore it or you can follow it - doesn't matter to me.


I appreciate your experience and your honest advice very much . I just want to say that I have the A+ already and some more and would really appreciate it if you read my first post or take a look on my CV and see if any of your advice have changed .
I considerd the N+ but thoght going bit higher to the CCNA would be an advantage to shorten the time but do I still need it now ?

There are some companies which provide I.T training package and then put you in jobs like Jusit . Their package include A+ , CCNA MCP for XP and MCP for Server 2003 .

Do you anticipate that companies would upgrade to server 2008 soon ?

Many thaks .

look forward to hearing from you soon .

Hani

 

Training providers who offer jobs at the end of the course very rarely come up with the goods, if you search on here there are plenty of posts from people who haven't got what they paid for out of the training provider, including the promised job.

What everyone is trying to say is, that there are no shortcuts into a IT career, learning on simulations, and from books does not prepare you for real life working in IT. So though its brilliant you passed the ccna, it won't help you get your foot in the door because you will look overqualified for the jobs you should be going for, and the jobs you want to go for, you won't have the experience you should get from the 1st line jobs.

 

Without sending me searching through thousands of posts, can you give me a one-sentence summary of your current IT experience level?

There is no shortcut to experience.
Repeat.
There is no shortcut to experience.
There is no shortcut to experience.
There is no shortcut to experience.

Certifications won't do it. Degrees won't do it. Training courses won't do it. The only thing that will get you there is working in IT and getting that experience over time.

If you're not yet administering servers in a domain environment, you should pursue only three certifications: the A+, the Network+, and/or the MCDST. That advice will not change if you do not yet have server or network administration experience.

There is no shortcut to experience.

I gave you this advice before, but I would again recommend that you read the posts on this forum regarding "job guarantees" offered by these training providers.

Upgrade? No. Implement alongside their existing 2000 and 2003 boxen? Absolutely.

Should you certify on either 2003 or 2008? Not until you get server admin experience. Certifications aren't to show companies what you WANT to be doing... certifications are to show companies what you ALREADY have experience doing.