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Can you trust community offcers?

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by UCHEEKYMONKEY, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. UCHEEKYMONKEY
    Honorary Member

    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    Two Community Police Officers watched a young boy drown in pond. There excuse for not jumping to save the boy was because it was not in their job description.

    In a statement after the hearing, Det Chf Insp Phil Owen, of Wigan CID, who led the investigation into Jordon's death, said: "PCSOs are not trained to deal with major incidents such as this.

    Instead two fishermen jumped in and saved Bethany but Jordon became submerged

    Full story here

    In IT there are lot of request which are not in the job description and yet we still do it because we are providing a service at the end of the day!!8)

    Maybe you've seen the story, maybe you haven't but I wouldn't standby and let someone drown would you?. 8)
     
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  2. Bambino1506

    Bambino1506 Megabyte Poster

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    No I wouldn't mate
     
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  3. twizzle

    twizzle Gigabyte Poster

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    Only if it was my ex! Then i'd throw in some lead weights for her to catch to make sure!! :twisted:

    Otherwise the answer would be no!
     
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  4. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    The joy's of married life eh?:biggrin :p
     
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  5. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Personally? No I wouldnt.

    But... I understand where these officers are coming from. If they arent trained to do something like that, then they are not insured. If they tried to save the kid and the kid died, the Parents could sue them, etc.

    When we, as IT, provide a service thats not part of our Job Description, we are still insured to do the work, as its all IT and equipment. The comparison would be like performing surgery on a dog when your Job description is to fix the PC. You arent insured to do it, you arent trained to do it. And if you arent trained you dont know what to do. Its all very well dragging the kid out of the water, but what if they need cpr to clear their lungs of water, etc. They wont be trained for that either! When an Emergency Services professional jumps into an incident like that, they become responsible for the whole incident. If paramedics are on hand, they can pass it off to them to deal with, but if not, then they are responsible for doing it themselves, until someone turns up.

    What if they had broken with the regulations, jumped in, tried to perform CPR and broke the kids ribs as a result? People would be complaining about officers doing what they werent trained for.

    In this case, they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Radio the incident in and wait for assistance.
     
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  6. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    Good answer, but what do you think about community officers? Do they make a difference or just waste of tax payers money?:blink

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    So really they are part time cops?

    Can you Police website
    8)
     
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  8. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Regardless of the hours they work, Community Support Officers are not police. They are police AIDES. They are there to operate under the direct supervision of fully trained police officers, assisting in various matters (usually things like throwing out time at the local clubs).

    That link says it exactly: They support full officers. and they interact with the public (usually trying to calm rowdy drunks). They are not fully trained.

    Maybe I'm callous, and certainly feel free to think so, but I fully support them in this case. They did what they were capable of doing (reporting the incident), and only what they were trained and permitted to do. And now they are getting stick for it.
     
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  9. wagnerk
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    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    No not really, a part-time cop is a full time cop but not working a full weeks work (eg 37 hrs p/w).

    The PCSO is a different job. It's like the difference between a support work or care assistant and comparing it to a nurse. While some they may share some duties, nurses do alot more.

    As for whether or not PCSO's are a waste of money, I'm undecided. I believe that the Government introduced them as a way to make up for the short-fall of cops due to insufficient funds/not enough recruits, just like a carer costs less than a nurse. However that doesn't mean that they are a waste of space, they are still providing a needed basic service. If the Government would actually train up PCSO's up to be cops after a certain amount of time, that would be great.

    As for IT jobs (not part of my job description), it really does depend on 2 things:

    1. If I can actually do it &
    2. If I like the person :)

    -ken
     
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  10. twizzle

    twizzle Gigabyte Poster

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    To be honest i can see where your comming from fergel.

    Years ago, as an apprentice, i was witness to a case where a fitter had done some electrical wiring (something he wasn't trained for). This led to a persons death, due to being incorrect. The guy was sacked, sentenced and faced a jail term, and the company was fined for letting him perform the job without adequate supervision.

    However, to just stand by and watch some one die is a different matter. Even if you are not insured, which lets face it no member of the public is, Most people would jump in and help without a seconds thought. You just do not stand by and watch someone die if there is the slightest possiblity of doing something to save them. Why didn't they call for help or look for a life bouy etc? Did they use thier radios to call for and ambulance? (I dont know so just asking?)
     
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  11. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    That's a good point!

    I searched through google to find out some more news on it:-

    Taken from the Daily Mail

    A member of the public called the emergency services after seeing the two children in trouble in the pond. The first to arrive the scene was the community officers nick named as "Blunkett's bobbies they arrived on their cycles and did nothing! But instead of wading in, they stood on the side of the pond and waited for trained officers to turn up.

    There's a tribute website setup for him Jordon Lyon died aged 10 while saving his sister 8)
     
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  12. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    They did actually radio in for help.

    And its different from being Joe Public to being an On-Duty officer. Responsibilities are different, as can be liabilities.
     
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  13. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    No I wouldn't say you are callous (well not within hitting distance :biggrin ) I do think this country hides behind red tape. With ordinary everyday members of the public putting their life at risk to do what the emergency services should do already!


    It's like the security guard who would not assist a member of the public in stopping 3 teenagers steal some goods from Wilkinsons!

    He saw them nick the stuff, ran after them and then corner them in a shopping centre toilet. His wife found a security guard of the shopping centre outside a disabled toilet and ask for his assistance. But he said no because he was guarding the disabled toilet and it was not his job to chase people. He described himself as a customer service person.

    Hang on I will go and find the link and post it here! 8)
     
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  14. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    ANYONE providing a public safety service should be CPR qualified up the wazoo, i dont care if your a traffic warden, or a ER surgeon, CRP and basic first aid should be a MUST in this line of work, and to not make it so is criminal

    the claim it was not in their job description, whilst true, is an utter cop out, but not solely on their shoulders
    the HSE has made things so much more complex these days that more people WILL die for basic shite like this because of 'no training, no insurance and any other number of things which will have agencies like this on your back even if your willing to put your life on the line'

    Try and look at the big picture
    waste of money? maybe, but then, so much of our taxes are, that's not going to change is it
     
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  15. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    I will certainly disagree. When the matter of insurance or a job description becomes more than than the value of a human life, as far as I'm concerned there is a real problem with priorities and common sense. Would I stop to think about insurance and job description if I saw someone drowning and knew I could help? Absolutely not. I'd say those two guys are pretty far down the scale of human worth. And, yes, it is callous.

    I guess I'd put it this way, Fergal. If it was you, or your family, drowning what you would you think of someone who stood on the bank and thought about his job description rather than helping you or your loved ones. Oftentimes putting yourself in the place of the victim puts things in a much different light.
     
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  16. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    QFT :rocks :thumbleft
     
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  17. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    I do exactly that freddy. Would I be happy about it? No I wouldnt. But I certainly wouldnt be blaming the officers. I'd be blaming the forces for not having their community officers trained to an extent that they could save lives, and Id be asking some tough questions.

    Also, CSO's are not (at least as far as Im aware) supposed to stray far from a fully qualified officer (presumeably for just this reason), So I'd be asking why they were allowed to wander off in a pair.

    Do I think its a fair system? Not really. But at the end of the day, you cant have things both ways. These things have tended to be locked down tight because untrained officers have attempted to save someone and done more harm than good, which then leads to the force/individuals being sued like crazy. So, you want people to 'do the right thing, even if they are untrained' but, if they screw up, you want the right to sue them for it? No. You cant have it both ways. Pick one and deal with the consequences of that choice.

    I also think people are overplaying the 'not in my job description' card. The article at no time says that the officers felt that it wasnt in their job description to jump in. It says they werent trained to do it. Vastly different.
     
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  18. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    Here's that link, I saw the story in my loacl paper and was surprised!

    I stopped a shoplifter but security guard told me: Sorry, can't help, it's not my job

    When Robert Franks noticed two teenagers stealing from a shop, his instinct was to stop them.

    Mr Franks grabbed hold of one boy, while his wife Julia called the security guard, thinking he would take over.

    But they thought wrong. Instead of detaining the culprits, the guard told Mr Franks, 28, to let go of the youngster.

    It wasn't in his job description to apprehend shoplifters, he said.

    And besides, he was busy guarding the lavatories :rolleyes:

    Read More
     
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  19. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    As much as I don't like to say this I have to agree with fergal:(

    The community officers and security guards of these two incidents "have to work within the law."
    Otherwise they would be prosecuted. It's a sad day for human rights!!:(

    But as stated :-

    'The security guards' primary function is to look after the health, safety and welfare of the customers and staff within the centre.

    But if someone runs past shouting, "Stop that man - he has stolen something", and the security guard tries to assist they can be prosecuted for assault.

    I expect it's the same with the community officers!

    But I can't bring myself to forgive them for doing nothing just to protect themselves.8)
     
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  20. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    The just a bunch of jonsworths that can't get a job as a proper copper.

    The fact is there should be more police on the streets and they shouldn't have as much red tape as they do then they could do their jobs.

    Its back to political correctness again people aren't scared of the police anymore cos they can't do anything without being scared of being sued or something.
     
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