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Brain Dumps - counter-measures

Discussion in 'General Microsoft Certifications' started by DaveyB1981, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. DaveyB1981

    DaveyB1981 Byte Poster

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    Evenin all,

    Having just read ANOTHER discussion on braindumps and seeing the author rightly warned against them, i have decided to ask a question that has been bothering me for a while - a lot of mention is made of de-certification and that there are clampdowns, but does anyone know specifically WHAT actions are taken to investigate? I understand about getting sites blacklisted etc etc, but what lengths are companies going to to see who are the cheats?

    Basically, i (like many others on this site) work damn hard to gain what bits of paper i have and HATE that others are getting them easier than me and potentially ending up with better jobs (for the record, i am perfectly happy with my job, but you get what i mean!)

    Any thoughts?

    Dave
     
    Certifications: CISMP, ITIL Fdn, MCDST
    WIP: the day job...
  2. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    They've been tracking statistical data for years and are just now starting to use it to determine exam behavior that is "outside the norm".

    Additionally, it is believed that Microsoft seeds in questions that have no purpose other than to catch braindumpers. Whether this is true or not, nobody knows, and Microsoft's not saying.

    There are plenty of articles out there that define some of the steps Microsoft is taking, but here's Microsoft's official exam security page: link
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  3. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    There are people that know more about this than me so I`ll let them answer.

    I see that you have mentioned the potential to get a better job with certs. Sure, having the certs may get the interview but actually being able to talk technical with someone who actually *knows* what they are talking about just isn’t going to happen if someone has used BDs or basically doesn’t put the time into learning networking.

    The last MCSE guy I spoke to referred to IP addresses as “numbers”, utter joke and just shows how certification has been devalued by BDs.
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  4. DaveyB1981

    DaveyB1981 Byte Poster

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    Sorry, meant to add that i do recognise that these people will sooner or later (generally sooner i reckon!) get found out by potential and actual employers. Maybe its not the job thing. maybe ints the devaluing of something i have worked hard for? Maybe its the "Wanted - 1st line support, must have MCSE" adverts. Either way, it annoys me!

    Dave
     
    Certifications: CISMP, ITIL Fdn, MCDST
    WIP: the day job...
  5. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Nah, that's just ignorance by the employer... it's been that way as long as I can remember. Some employers just know the MCSE buzzword, but don't know what it even means.

    Hey, here's another link that shows what Microsoft and Cisco are doing to crack down on cheaters: link
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  6. DaveyB1981

    DaveyB1981 Byte Poster

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    Thanks - thats quite a good article. I like the reference to forum posts - always thought that'd be interesting!

    Dave
     
    Certifications: CISMP, ITIL Fdn, MCDST
    WIP: the day job...
  7. jk2447

    jk2447 Petabyte Poster Moderator

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    I can see where you are coming from Davey. I'm really against brain dumps myself but on the other hand, if the guy sitting next to me doesn't know his stuff through cutting corners, well, just makes me look all the better doesn't it :biggrin:D:twisted: I know my stuff and recently got a nice shiney new job on a lot more money so I guess Karma likes how I roll :p8) Cheers, Jim
     
    Certifications: BSc (Hons), HND IT, HND Computing, ITIL-F, MBCS CITP, MCP (270,290,291,293,294,298,299,410,411,412) MCTS (401,620,624,652) MCSA:Security, MCSE: Security, Security+, CPTS, VCP4, CCA (XenApp6.5), MCSA 2012, VCP5, VCP6-NV
  8. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    I used to have that attitude JK. It works for a while too.

    Then you experience the horrors of an economic downturn, word matching on CVs and recruiters who genuinely don't give a **** about whether you;re a good fit for a role - all they want is someone through the door for their commission so they can move onto the next (sucker) employer they're recruiting for. Its at this point that you start to think: Hang on, these pr*cks are getting interviews for jobs ahead of people who actually do know what they're talking about - just on blind chance because their CV came up in a word-match... and some of them are actually being employed because they're cheaper than the poor sods who do know what they're on about - and what they're worth in salary for that knowledge.

    Its at that point that you start treating braindumpers as being on the same rung of society's ladder as estate agents, criminals and lawyers.
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  9. jk2447

    jk2447 Petabyte Poster Moderator

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    Totally understand where you're coming from here Zebula mate. I'm lucky in that I've just got a new job hence my attitude in my previous post but as you say, if I was ever passed over by someone who clearly didn't know their stuff I bet my attitude would turn pretty quickly.

    The new job I have is the same one I do now but I told them in the interview I want to get into Penetration testing and security and they said I can write my own ticket :D. Ideally I'd love to be in a position to nail people who rip people off or like to cheat the system. In a few years time if all goes to plan I hope to move to a government agency to do just that (sure you's know which one). Fingers crossed mate, Jim

    **EDIT: Just noticed this was post 666 for me, UNethical Hackers Beware ha ha ha!
     
    Certifications: BSc (Hons), HND IT, HND Computing, ITIL-F, MBCS CITP, MCP (270,290,291,293,294,298,299,410,411,412) MCTS (401,620,624,652) MCSA:Security, MCSE: Security, Security+, CPTS, VCP4, CCA (XenApp6.5), MCSA 2012, VCP5, VCP6-NV
  10. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    Excuse me if I am being ignorant here, but what exactly are these braindumps I hear here ?

    Are we refering to practical exams that have the answers and explain it in very short general terms why it is right/wrong ?

    I tried to google "braindumps" and found that they are basically the questions with the correct answers and why.

    So in terms, similar to practical exams. I have got the TestOut, Preplogic and Total Tester materials along with books of course, and while my knowledge is enough to pass some certs, I wonder what is the definition.

    I dont normally say this, but I want someone to show me the light. :p
     
    Certifications: A+
    WIP: N+, MCDST/MCSE
  11. jk2447

    jk2447 Petabyte Poster Moderator

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    No probs mate. I use exam engines myself,Transcender, Exam Cram 2 etc. The difference is that legal testing engines create the questions based on course content, scenarios etc and put tons of effort into simulating and testing your knowledge.

    Braindumps on the other hand are when some nefarious person copies ACTUAL exam questions from an exam and gives you the answer, so basically you could pass the exam even if you don't know anything about IT. These are illegal and will hopefully get their users de-certified not to mention making a mockery of all the hard work others put in to get certified legitimately

    Jim
     
    Certifications: BSc (Hons), HND IT, HND Computing, ITIL-F, MBCS CITP, MCP (270,290,291,293,294,298,299,410,411,412) MCTS (401,620,624,652) MCSA:Security, MCSE: Security, Security+, CPTS, VCP4, CCA (XenApp6.5), MCSA 2012, VCP5, VCP6-NV
  12. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Exactly this.

    Or, consider what happens if you were to work with a braindumper... and your manager takes the dumper's suggestions over yours just because he's more certified than you are... despite the fact that you KNOW that the dumper's suggestions will cause you all a ton of headache.

    Plus, it's never fun trying to clean up after a braindumper. I've had PLENTY of contract jobs where I had to fix a horribly designed network - great for business, but not sure it's worth the loss in sanity!

    At the end of the day, an employer who hires a certified braindumper will probably see the dumper for what they're worth. Problem is, when that happens, the dumper has tarnished the good name of the certification we worked hard to get, because the employer now believes the MCSE certification to be a poor indicator of a tech's abilities. The braindumps hurt the dumper, they hurt the employer, and they hurt you and me.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  13. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    As JK correctly states, they're not at all the same. Braindumps are a copy of the test - no different than stealing a professors exam from his or her desk and studying it. Legit practice exam products (like what I create) are created from scratch.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  14. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

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    Something that infuriates me is people who I know who are good at what they do (very experienced), yet still feel the need to cheat on these exams. I know a couple of people like this who take the attitude ... they are only MS exams, get over yourself etc... I think they see certs as a necessary evil and no more, but I worked damn hard for the ones I got. Even if they are just MS certs, it does rankle with me to know people are passing them without putting the work in.

    They don't seem to realise that the attitude they have is the reason why certs have been devalued as much as they have, compared to say 10 years ago.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCP, MCDST, MCSA 2K3, MCTS, MOS, MTA, MCT, MCITP:EDST7, MCSA W7, Citrix CCA, ITIL Foundation
    WIP: Nada
  15. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    Thanks for the clarification guys. :p

    Wish they made something more practical instead of just a text-based exam. But then the costs of having someone there and the place to rent would definetely pile up...

    Coming from a school where we had random exams all verbal with no specific date and time, I had to know what I am talking about at all the times, otherwise I would be like a clown in front of the class haha! Good days, that actually did me good. 8)

    Anyways, I am wondering here though why less and less employers are not asking questions in the interviews or presenting you with a practical "exam" there and then without warning you that such things would occur.
    Surely that would rule out a few "noobs with cert" dudes.

    Last question: how does the certification boards, know that you did a braindump to de-certify you ?

    Cheers :p:oops:
     
    Certifications: A+
    WIP: N+, MCDST/MCSE
  16. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    It's always difficult to handle politically.

    On the one hand test sponsors have to be anti-braindump as it devalues the cert and is also theft of their IP. However, de-certifying people would also generate negative publicity so there needs to be a balance.

    At the end of the day, the likes of MS want more people out there wearing their MCP lapel pins and listing their certs on their CVs. We are all the footsoldiers of MS in that respect. OK, it's no good if all those people sucked at their jobs - but the numbers of braindumpers compared to others means it's unlikely that two HR managers are going to get together and say 'Hey, you know what, I interviewed six MCSEs last week and none of them knew what they were talking about.'

    We've seen how difficult it has been for MS to take on some of the big and well known dumpers, and even that has met with limited success. Are they going to spend time and money going after the little guys?
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  17. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Anyomne ever known anyone sad enough to do this? I worked at a place once where a bloke wore about four of them like they were medals. Tool.
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  18. Ence

    Ence Kilobyte Poster

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    If you wore it in PC world all the staff line up then bowel you can get a discount there too if you got your pin.
    I think some of post here BD are just trolls
     
  19. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Probably only in America.
    When I was at the MS office in Reading you could always spot the US staff. They had the MS logo shirt, MS logo lanyard with their ID card on it, MS logo briefcase, MS logo pen, MS logo coffee cup... It was all very funny.

    Maybe they got it all for free?

    :rolleyes:
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  20. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    Don't forget the MS boxer shorts !

    Funniest thing I ever saw was the IBM garter !

    How did that ever catch on ?
     
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH

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