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Asking how much they are paying for you??

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by orangepeeleo, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    Hi guys,

    My contracts is about 3 months away from the end date, although it does look like contracts are automatically renewed i have been looking around, updating the CV and seeing if i could move on, wage-wise if not technical responsibility wise. I'm currently employed by a company, and that company has a big client that are paying my employer for my services, not sure if there is a technical name for a company that does that but thats my arrangement at the mo.

    My question is, would there be anything to stop me asking the client, the company i work for 5 days a week, what they are paying my employer on a daily/monthly basis, in the hope of finding out its a lot compared to my salary and me being able to get a little increase and a perm job by saying right your paying them that, you could take me on full time for however much less?? It's killing me not knowing how much money my employer is making from me, i've said it in a thread before but i know i'm not being paid a decent enough salary for my role and i just can't stop thinking that my employer has hired me for xxk per year and is making a nice amount on top of that by charging the client about 10k more.

    Sorry if this seems whingy and a kick in the teeth to those looking for their first role or w/e but i pay about £150 per month for fuel + £60 p/m for car insurance, my commuting costs basically, take that away from my net pay and i'm left with about £900-950, which is a piss take and leaves me working 5 days a week for nothing once bills are paid, if you take off commuting costs and work out an hourly wage from what im left with it works out about £5.50 an hour, probably less than the ****in cleaners! I know theres people in far worse situations than i am and i'm grateful everyday for being able to feed my family and have a non leaky roof over our heads but i also have ambition and a smart head on my shoulders and i feel like i am being taken advantage of by my employer atm and its starting to cloud my head everyday while im at work, which obviously is not a good place to be!
     
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  2. LukeP

    LukeP Gigabyte Poster

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    1. They're legally not allowed to tell you that.
    2. If they hire you directly they have to pay the agency/recuiter anyway.
    3. If they don't want to pay the agency and hire you they can either:
    a. Do it and get dragged to court for breach of contract
    b. Dismiss you and wait the cooldown period until they can hire you directly.

    You won't be able to trick them. It's legally binding contract between your workplace and your employer. If it was that easy everyone would be doing so and there would be no recruitment/temp agencies.

    Good luck mate!
     
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  3. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    Maybe i'm not so smart lol its only just hit me now that i'm effectively an agency worker, it didnt feel like it when i was signing contracts etc but technically they are acting like an agency, and making a ton out of me like agencies do.... bollocks!

    I love this job but im so pissed off with being taken for some sort of mug that i can't see me staying longer than december without a decent pay rise, i just gotta pray that my workplace value me enough to take me on full time, i'll just have a quite word with the manager around november time and just drop into convo that i'm probably not going to be renewing my contract with my employer so i'll regretably could be leaving in Dec, put on the sad puppy eyes and mention how i can't afford to carry on working on the wage that i get lol

    Cheers for making me see the light, always said i didnt wanna work for an agency and i've ended up doing it unknowingly!
     
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  4. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    Orange, you need to stop thinking about what people are charging you out at because that leads to heartache and you getting more upset with it, as a contractor you should be concentrating on the job, not the financials between your company and their client.

    As far as asking the client about rates, that's the way to go to losing your job because your arguements for gaining more money work the other way, the client can then say to your company "but you're only paying Orange x, we want a reduction", to which your company fire your arse for talking financials.

    Not only will they have a clause in their contract about taking you on but you should also have something in your contract about the same thing, usually it's between 6 - 12 months, there is a high chance that if you said to your company that you want to work directly for their client that not only won't you be able to but you could also be let loose straight away, if you then decided to do it on the sly the client has a risk of being taken to court for hiring you directly (you would have the gardening period between working for the outsourcer and for the client directly), all in all it really isn't worth the risk.

    You can't go thinking about your cost of living\travelling costs and taking that out of your hourly rate, your commuting costs need to be factored in with any role, if that's something you're only realising now then you have two options.

    1. Find a job closer to you so that it reduces your commuting costs
    2. Get a hotel room and stay over during the working week.

    Now the hard truth, you took on the position knowing about the commute and should have factored this all in, as it stands I am currently paying £120 pw on fuel bills, I spend 3 - 4hours a day in my car and in the three months I have been doing the job have put more than 10k miles on my car, I accept that because I factored the rate in with the job. I don't like spending all that time in the car but... and this is the big one, I have a family to support and any job (as long as I am earning more than I am spending) is better than no job.

    Unfortunately your manager has no control over this and they couldn't hire you if they wanted (see above), all you would do in this situation is paint yourself in a bad light for a couple of reasons.

    1. You didn't think through the consequences when taking on the position, what else won't you think about in the future.
    2. You're a bit of a whinger and are trying to bag more money by playing off the client against your company.

    Either one of them would make me question why\if I should continue having you on site for me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
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  5. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    I said this before, and I'll say it again. Why does it matter what they are paying the agency/consultancy for your retainer? All that matters is whether you are happy with the salary you are on, and whether you can get more elsewhere.

    If you are unhappy with your pay, then you speak to your employer about it, or you look for a job elsewhere more in line with the salary you feel you are worth. In either case, what your employer is being paid for your services is utterly irrelevant.
     
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  6. Killian

    Killian Byte Poster

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    I'm not a Contractor but I really didn't know that. Interesting. :)
     
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  7. Josiahb

    Josiahb Gigabyte Poster

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    Got to agree with Simon and Fergal on this one, what your employers being paid is entirely unimportant. If you feel your being underpaid by your employer bring it up with them or move on. What the client pays has absolutely no bearing on the situation at all.
     
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  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    The thing is... without your agency/employer/whatever-you-want-to-call-them, you wouldn't have the job you have now.

    Don't kid yourself - if you're doing a good job, EVERY employer will be "making a ton out of you". If they weren't, you wouldn't have a job. Remember, you're not there so the company can give you a job and a salary... you're there so you can make money for the employer. Either you provide more value to yoru employer than you're being paid, or you're an expense and a liability. The key to career success is to NEVER be the latter.

    Considering the current economic and employment situation, I would urge you to reconsider that decision. You could end up jumping for the fruit on the distant branch and end up landing on your face.

    Remember, this is your employer's customer. Being in this situation twice myself, I can almost guarantee that there are restrictions from them hiring you without paying a hefty buy-out fee, even if you decide to stop working for your current employer for a period of months (or years).

    That said, if you're worth the cost, the customer may very well pay the buyout fee and hire you outright. The two times I was in your situation, that's exactly what happened. But keep in mind, that doesn't automagically mean they'll give you the difference in what they were paying your employer and what you were making... if they hire you, they'll likely give you a small increase and pocket the savings. And then you'll be providing value for your NEW employer, "making a ton out of you"... just like your old employer was.
     
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  9. Theprof

    Theprof Petabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    I have to agree with everyone's opinion on this matter... I'll give you an example on my situation, although it's a little different from yours but it's on the same topic regarding salary.

    When I first started working for the company I work for now, I started out as a tech (desktop support). Of course with no experience and being my first job I didn't really get paid that much but I understood that regardless of what I am worth whether they're paying me a salary I want or don't it was their decision to do so and I had no real negotiation opportunity being my first job and all. After about 3 years as a desktop support I got promoted to a Network Admin, however the salary adjustment didn't follow. I looked around and wanted to see what I am worth in the market and saw that I was indeed being under payed. However I didn't get emotional about it, instead I just went and talked to my boss a month before my review about the salary and he seems to have agreed with me on one point or another.

    I could always find another job and go else where for a bigger pay, I know that with my skill set I am worth more than what I was getting payed, but the fact the I like where I work changes things which is why it's important to communicate with your boss before doing anything you're going to regret.

    I also have some debt and bills/rent/car loan to pay but that's just how things are. I would say look around on the market and see what other companies are paying their employees to do the same job and you might be surprised. Keep in mind that different industries pay different salaries.
     
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  10. soundian

    soundian Gigabyte Poster

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    Firstly, have you considered why the company you're doing the work for (as opposed to the one that you actually get paid by) are using temp staff? If they're doing it this way then they probably want to be able to adapt to changing business circumstances quickly without having to shell out a huge amount in redundancies/notice periods.
    If that's the reason, or it's maternity cover etc, then they're unlikely to give you a perm position.
    Secondly, they probably don't care how much you're earning, they know how much you cost them but that's a different thing. Getting in someone else from the same agency would cost them exactly the same, regardless of how much that person was getting paid by the agency.

    At the end of the day, unless you actually own the company you're always going to be working for less than you earn/are worth to the company, otherwise your position would be redundant and you would go home with a P45 while they spread your workload over the remaining value-for-money workforce.
     
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  11. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    That’s a good point.

    I have noticed this at the company I work for (outsourced IT) as some companies have a recruitment freeze just now so they approach us for contracted IT support and also to have a contractor on-site. It basically means they are not recruiting anyone (company policy) but get IT staff on-site as they need it.
     
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  12. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    I’m sure you could prof as you are talented guy however I don’t think it would be as easy as getting another job with bigger pay.

    IT is competitive as the best of times and the higher paid jobs will have many applicants with a range of IT backgrounds. There will probably be over qualified people applying due to the current market as well.
     
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  13. Theprof

    Theprof Petabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    That's a good point actually, I can definitely see that.
     
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  14. Toasty

    Toasty Byte Poster

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    What you have overlooked in your analyses of the rates of pay being paid by the customer to the agency and then what the agency paying you, is the fact the agency is a business and needs to make a profit, so it sells you at a higher rate than it pays you.

    The agency makes it profit this way to cover all the costs as incurred by any business, admin staff wages, building rents, taxes ect.

    Also the customer who has asked the agency for a position to be filled has released itself of all employment liability ie holiday pay, sick pay, employment contracts. If the customer decided that your services are not needed next week it just informs the agency.

    This is the nature of using agencies/temp staff.
     
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  15. Consultant

    Consultant Bit Poster

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    Depending on your level of expertise and the job you do, typically a consultant will get hired out by their employer at between £500 and £1500+ a day, again depending on the value, rarity and level of the skill.

    You could go contracting on your own, if you have enough confidence in your abilities (you have to sell yourself), and are certain that you can deliver the goods without the backup of an employer behind you. On the flip side, you'll be taking on your own bookkeeping (for taxes, etc), you'll also have to put money aside for your "paid leave", pension, insurance and all the other benefits you won't get anymore. You'll also have to invest in your own training and development to ensure that you can keep earning the same (or better rates).

    I've seen rates ranging from £200 a day to £1500 a day, so it can be highly rewarding, but also is highly demanding.

    I've been freelance on and off for nearly 15 years, and handled correctly cit an be great, but some people are better suited to employment, that's just life. You have to examine the facts and make an objective decision.

    Regards to being taken advantage of, bear in mind that there are very few companies out there these days that beleive in a fair days work, for a fair days pay, most employers will pay you a salary and expect to own you for the money (despite what they claim up front). This is one of the primary reasons I became a freelance contractor; on an hourly rate I invoice for the number of hours I work in a day, and have various riders that give conditions around that about breaks between days, time allowances for training and annual leave (specifically for banks that can afford to pay your rate for 20 hours a day).

    Whatever happens it's extremely unlikely that you'll be able to go and work for the guys that you get hired out to by your employer.

    Hope this helps.

    Tony.
     
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  16. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    I can't help but think, you took the job, you took the wage, you took it knowing the commute, which seems like small change really, you have to pay to get to work, that's just life, I pay circa £400 a month out of my own money to get around, plus £80 in insurance. Of course I claim quite a sizeable portion of that back, but it's besides the point.

    As for what you were suggesting, that is a good way to really really burn the bridge in the IT community and make your self a toxic asset quite quickly. It will only end badly so don't bother. How much your employer gets is irrelevant because the client pays for the knowledge of an ENTIRE company, not just you.

    If you want a rise then ask for it at review day, if you want one and can't wait. Start looking elsewhere.

    and as everyone has said, you're contract and everyone else's who has employed and sold you will state quite clearly that you cannot do business with any clients for XYZ Period of time.
     
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  17. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    Thanks everyone for your advice on this, was certainly not expecting 15 replies!

    You lot have definetly made me see the light on this one and it would have been a stupid move to go dropping hints to the manager, i think i was just venting, my contract ends Dec 2nd so there'll be meetings etc before then. i'm just going to update the CV, get it back onto the job sites and see what comes up, i know i was getting quite a few calls every week in the month or so after i started so i was still drawing interest then, hopefully something better comes up, although i love the workplace and the people i work with i do feel that i could be making things a bit more comfortable for me and my family, an extra £4k pa doesnt sound like much but fiddling around with the tax calculator a £4k raise would make things rather more comfortable for me i think, obv in this day and age theres practically zero chance of me getting a 4k raise after 6 months of working for them but they said themselves that i undersold myself, hopefully they still think that at the review and be a bit generous to keep me onboard... so fingers crossed lol

    I think that i'm going to keep my mouth shut, apart from at official reviews, update the CV and just see whats out there.

    Thanks again for the advice guys, saved me from makin a right tit out of myself! :)
     
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  18. Theprof

    Theprof Petabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    Glad that helped :). But I completely understand how having extra cash per paycheck helps today! I think about that sometimes as well!
     
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