Are there really no worthwhile training providers?

Discussion in 'New Members Introduction' started by surf_uk, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    It's not gonna affect my life if you accept what I have to say or you reject what I have to say. However, I am responding because I want you to succeed. THAT is what matters.
     
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  2. greenbrucelee
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    I have said this before and will say it again, IT is a constant learning experience, technology moves very fast. You need to be able to constantly learn about IT so in a way everyone should be able to self study as reading a magazine about a new technology or something is the same as reading a book about it.

    If you can't do that then maybe IT isn't the right career for you.

    Yes a structured environment like a classroom may help you study for a qualification which is good, but you can't be in a classroom for the rest of your life can you?
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
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  3. The_Dark_Side

    The_Dark_Side Bit Poster

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    Hi,
    I have worked as an employed trainer and as a frelance trainer in the past and know alot about most training organisations.
    The guys are right, the cheapest route is books, but for many, a long and hard route. I have self studied with books and through the several comapanies (staff discount at the time).
    I would say that for online training I have found www.e-careers.co.uk to be a good system that is very cheap comapred to many with individual courses at about £200.
    One of the best colleges I have come accorss in my travels is www.justit.co.uk, based in Liverpool Street, who offer excellent facillities (£100,000 worth of cisco kit to play with last time I was there 8 years apx) and IT recuitment after.
    I have also been advised (through cert forums), that Transcender have good materials also but you need to fast as they sell in dollars and they are strenghtening against the pound (especially when rates drop again today).
     
  4. Arroryn

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed Moderator

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    Rightho, I'm a little late on this one, but hey, I've been celebrating and love to wade in on topics about TPs.

    Firstly, this comment GBL. The OP clearly stated he had a training budget of £5K - I presume that's not a 'personal loan amount of' but I could be wrong. If it's a budget that has to be spent, then it doesn't matter how much the course costs, so long as it lands 'in budget'.

    You can't possibly comment that they (all TPs) are all whatever swear word you used, as you don't have experience of them all; similarly, I can't say that they're all good, only that I have had a good experience with the one TP I have used - like BMs post earlier in this thread - some are good, some provide good courses. Choosing a method of study is a very personal one, and allowing someone a level-headed view of TPs instead of the 'they're crap monotone' is what a forum like this should offer.

    The thread swerved very quickly into stating that if self study isn't for you, then IT isn't for you.

    So, do I not deserve the position I have now? I gained it before I self studied for any of my certs. The first and only cert I have achieved through the much-loved SS method is my 70-271.

    But consider for a moment, what a training provider does.

    The only way of passing a cert in IT without self studying is by using braindumps.

    You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. I could sit in one of my fiance's lectures listening to theories on pure maths, and I wouldn't leave there more knowledgeable on the concept. Two things must be considered on instructor-led TPs (boot camps and colleges) - that you have a good grasp of the material that will be covered, and that you have the willingness to concentrate and study.

    As for what most people 'traditionally' think of as training providers - Skillstrain, Computeach and the like - why do you think people consider them (and mainly rightfully so) to be such a huge extortion in the first place? Studying with these providers is akin to self studying anyway - it's just that they're providing you with the material, as opposed to going out and getting the books. The course still consists of you sitting on your own wherever you choose, going through material mapping to exam objectives and making it stick - on your own. Sure there are TMAs to gauge your process, but how else could they then purport to be a training 'provider' as opposed to a folder reseller?

    We are too quick to belittle those that consider to use or have used training providers. Because it works for one person, does not mean it works for another.

    Using this quote, I'll take a top-drawer example. Zeb. Sorry, mate, but you're gonna be used. AFAIK Zeb has used a boot camp (successfully, if not satisfactorally). Does this put him into the context of rethinking his career? And if not, why the exception? Because you know him?

    Yes, IT is a constant learning experience, but it is also a harsh career. I envy people that find the time to pursue all their hobbies and hopes, as I find myself chasing my tail in a never-ending attempt to better myself. It's slow. It's hard. If you have the knowledge, then why not use a TP? Have you not found it difficult yourself to self study, with the committments that the rest of life has to throw at you? Maybe a little structure is not a bad thing - especially if someone else is paying for it.

    I agree with this, mainly.

    I do not agree with this. (but I know it's your opinion and respect that).

    But I mainly disagree because of the loose use of the word 'training provider'.

    As I have pointed out previously, training providers that are long distance put you in situations that are akin to (albeit grossly more expensive than) self studying.

    Classroom led courses are different, and a few of our prominent members have used bootcamps and classrooms to obtain certs because of hectic lifestyles. If the funding is already there, then what is the indignity in using them?

    Just because we don't know the personal situation of someone doesn't mean we should treat them with any less regard. This is a forum to help people, not shove pro-self study down their throats.

    Sorry for the borish, rantish post but there are a couple of things I felt needed to be said.

    As for the original OP request - surf_uk if you're looking for effective bootcamps, I am afraid I have no experience of any, though you may want to continue sifting through threads here (have you tried doing a search on 'koenig'?) as I know some people have successfully "'camped".

    If you haven't got to use the budget on classroom-led or provider-based training, then yes, it would still be worthwhile for you to buy some books and equipment, as £5K would buy you a generous lab and library to start with.

    I hope you find the info / solution you're looking for.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  5. greenbrucelee
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    Point taken. I have never had anything against people wanting to learn and never had anything against classroom study like at a college. What I don't like about TPs is the fact that they overcertify and overcharge people.

    Then you get people in massive debt and can't get a job.

    Yes I have never experienced all these different TPs it was finding CF that made the warning bells ring and I never knew that you didn't have to do a course to do an exam. This is why initially I was going to go with a TP.

    As for learning we all self study because we take in the information we see everyday so applying it to reading some books and practicing the concepts shouldn't be too difficult for anyone.

    That is why I said if you can't take info in then maybe IT isn't for you. Maybe thats a bit harsh I don't know.

    But I take your point.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  6. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Uh, nooo... you can pass a cert in IT by using a training provider... which is NOT "self-studying". Self-studying is learning something by YOURSELF, without the assistance or cost of a training provider.

    Not belittling anyone - at all. I am simply saying that, when you actually GET into IT, MOST companies won't pay for structured classroom training, and/or won't let you out of work to attend structured classroom training. So if you REQUIRE that... how are you going to thrive in IT, particularly when competing against people who do NOT require it? That's my only point.

    I'm not saying that people who require training providers are stupid. I'm not saying that people who require training providers are incapable of learning. I'm ONLY saying that people who require training providers to study are going to find it difficult to stay on top of new technologies because they can't attend class all the time when they're actually IN IT, and they're going to find it difficult to compete against those who study on their own.

    Because he doesn't REQUIRE the use of a training provider. He can - and has - self-studied plenty of technologies. Simply USING a training provider when one is available or offered doesn't automatically rule one out for IT... but REQUIRING a training provider in order to study for certifications or new technologies IS a danger sign.

    I hate to say it, Arro, but that's not gonna end until the day you decide that it's not worth it to your career to continue to better yourself... and then you become as obsolete as the technologies you know how to support. THAT is what I mean by career stagnation. If you don't LOVE IT, and you don't have a burning desire to learn IT in your free time, then it's gonna be a rough career path. Not saying YOU don't love IT... just saying that someone who isn't prepared for almost constant self-study is going to find it difficult to stay on top of the game, and you've gotta love IT to WANT to do that. Those who love IT generally succeed.

    If you already HAVE knowledge, why do you need a TP? :blink Don't you go to a TP to GET knowledge?

    Again, you can use a TP... but what happens when you're IN your IT career, and you can't go to a TP?

    If all you need is structure, I'm sure there are forum people who would be willing to give you structure for a fraction of the cost (or free!). But there must be more you're looking for... what is it? Is the increased motivation to "finish a course" caused by the fact that you (or somebody) paid a lot of money for the course? What is it? What drives you? If it's the money that motivates you to complete it, and not the love for the subject, then I stand by my previous points.

    So... what's the point, if you're self-studying, but paying a lot of money for it? So you can use their courseware? There's courseware available for every mainstream cert out there. So you can use their advisors and teachers? That's what the advisors and teachers and writers on this forum are for, is it not? Do you simply need a structured schedule and some exams? Arro, if that's the case, and you're TRULY self-studying... then there's a MUCH less expensive plan that can be arranged.

    There's no indignity in using them at all, and if you think I'm saying that, then you're either not reading carefully, or you're assuming something that I haven't said. If someone's gonna buy the course for you, or if the course is free, or if an employer is willing to give you paid time off for training courses, then by all means, take them. If you're taking a training course simply because you can't motivate yourself otherwise to study, then THAT is when you should examine your love for IT, and whether you should be in this career field. Not because you can't do it... but because you're probably not gonna enjoy the constant struggle. Why work a job that seems like a constant struggle?!? I truly don't understand that.

    Note that I'm not directing these comments at YOU... I'm directing them towards whoever might find themselves in this situation.

    I don't hold anyone who uses training providers with less regard, and again, if you believe that, then you're either not reading carefully, or you're assuming something that I haven't said. Don't read words into what I say... and I've said something quite specific... if you **require** a training provider, then you're gonna find it difficult to be in IT.

    Nowhere have I said that I - or anyone - should hold people who use training providers in less regard. So please, don't assume something I haven't said or even alluded to. It's not fair of you to do so.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  7. Arroryn

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed Moderator

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    You pass it by yourself, using books. You don't mysteriously know everything for the exam. I am trying to point out that not all TPs train using the same methods - and distance learning TPs are just as 'self studying' - you learn it YOURSELF.


    I agree - quite true

    The OP didn't particularly require it (and is already in IT) and so I thought I was remaining in the context of the thread (that had seemed to go on this tangent we sit at now).

    But not all training providers are classroom led, and those that often cost the earth are ironically those that suit self-studying students better, as it seems to involve naught more than you getting TP branded materials and an online portal to converse with students.


    It's a fair point, but I agree with (what I think was) DMarsh's opinion - at the lower echelons of IT then it should be acceptable to require the help, to take the 'baby steps' as it were. But higher in your career I accept that the inability to learn technologies on your own will be the breaking of you.

    I wasn't alluding just to IT when I meant the chasing of my tail. I meant pursuing life too - wanting to learn Mandarin, improve German, ride the length of the country for charity, do a degree, become an MCDST and MCSA, write a novel, run a household and have a full time job leaves one ragged sometimes... I don't pretend to think I'm the busiest person around either, as I don't have a family to think about / look after. But for those whose life isn't just IT, having the assistance of a set course helps set things in place. I know this isn't the same for you, but it worked for me.


    No - not if the adage we all stand by is true - that we gain certifications to assert the knowledge we already have in the work we do.


    But a forum can't give you the deadlines and discipline attached to a set course.

    Now that is an unfair assumption to make on behalf of the masses.

    Getting a career in IT drove me - not the money, but the passion behind the career. You cannot stand by those points if you want to converse on the topic with me.

    I'm mainly trying to talk up the TP route when the formal expense is provided by another. We all know how much TPs cost, and we all know it's too much.


    I'll be honest - I personally think you sometimes come across as giving the impression that yes, using TPs is something that someone is doing wrong - almost to the point where it taints their experience of the industry having done so.

    I think this is mainly because of your fervent, often ardent, advocation of self studying. And yes, as a majorly successful self-studier working in the certification industry you have more than enough experience to do so, and I would never begrudge anybody their opinion.

    But sometimes a topic of conversation can use elements such as the OP in this thread, who had a set training budget that had to be spent - and he was still told that self-studying was the way. What you have said here:

    did not come across in your replies IMO - not in this instance.

    No, honestly, in black and white, you haven't said these words. I just feel that sometimes people in this forum, not just yourself, are too quick to evangelise self study and denounce the training provider method, so much so that threads where self studying is maybe not the viable option are not given the right atmosphere to develop and be discussed.

    I am not personally attacking you on this, and if you want to discuss it further via email, I'd love to talk about training provider concepts and self study. Yes, I advocate self study and it is the most viable way to go about learning for our (IT) careers. But it's not always the best method for those new to the industry, and with CF being a portal mainly for those in their fledgling careers, we have to be as unbiased and give as varied and informed a view as we possibly can - not at the detrement of those who have (or have not) had good experiences be it with colleges, boot camps or TPs.
     
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    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Arro, I'll have to respond to these when I have more time... but it'll be in public, because I'd like more than just you to understand my point; I think you're misunderstanding me, and perhaps others are as well.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  9. Arroryn

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed Moderator

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    I look forward to it. Perhaps you are quite right - I know how tough it can be to get your message across in the right way sometimes when writing. Black and white text does nothing to compensate for intonation and body language :biggrin

    Could be worse - you could be writing this on a PDA too, Flameforker! :)
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
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  10. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I know better than to try something as crazy as that. :D

    I attempted to write my journal electronically when I went overseas... I got tired of doing it by the end of the flight over there.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  11. mattprince

    mattprince Bit Poster

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    Hi,

    Im new to here so my point is proably irrelevant.

    I was just about to sign up for a TP that was going to charge me £1199 for A+, N+, MCSA and CCNA (exclusive of exam fees)

    I was advised to self study and if i think about it, its no different. If i go to the TP i get uinlimited access for a year on them courses but still have to self study, just on a screen not a book.

    I can get all the books i need for under £100 , thats nearly 1k saving. I will be putting the 1k into getting my CV loking brilliant (after ive passed my certs of course) and buying a brand new computer.

    Thats the best way for me i think!

    Matt
     
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  12. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    and you can get free advice on here.
     
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  13. surf_uk

    surf_uk New Member

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    Finally someone who has an actual opinion! And doesn't bite the head of every new comer that mentions the forbidden TP words. I actually gave up on this forum which is why I haven't replied in ages, just thought I'd have a quick check and found 31 replies!! Finally someone who doesn't drone the words over and over, self study is the only way... whatever... yawn... thanks Arroryn!

    To be honest if you TP terrorists can spend soooooo much time beating everyone down on forums there's no wonder you got time to self study!

    I may have missed the boat with my budget due to not having anyone anywhere recommend a TP, and not finding anything 'worthwhile'. Shame is I HAD to spend the money and still no-one recommended anything.

    I RECKON: If I had phrased the question as I want to pay £5k to one of you guys who's self studied and are logically enlightened, I guarantee you guys would have turned suit and said sure come my way training is the new self study... am I right!

    I have ruled out overseas training because of:
    -Many people use them as a scam (easy way to get a rubber certificate)
    -Braindumps galore
    -You have to pay before you go (I'm not that stupid)
    -Language problems (will I actually understand them)

    Ruled out local college training:
    -only once a week, which means spending a load on travel
    -when you turn up you can't guarantee the lecturer will
    -easier to study in own environment rather than nosy sweaty labs

    Only thing left is find a suitable and recommended training partner or self study. Simple as that. Really depends on what type of person you are as to what you do. I don't want to hear any more of it!

    Cheers
    Ross
     
    Certifications: UNI(Computer Sci. BSc & Mobile Cmp. MSc)
    WIP: MCPD
  14. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

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    Just because other people have opinions that are different to your own doens't mean they are any less valid than those you agree with. Yes I think sometimes people get a bit over zealous with their opinions and it can give a biased view, especially of some of the less scroupulous private training providers. The fact there are so many people around who are unhappy with them should give you at least some inkling that they aren't always delivering on their promises of a glittering well paid career in IT, just give us 5K and it will happen!! etc...


    I guess your local college isn't up to much then as the one I have been teaching part-time at is nothing like your description.

    As for the general tone of your post ... seems very immature indeed. You seem to have all the answers, we don't know anything etc... Now that we know that, I'm sure we'll all be better off.
     
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  15. Mr Machfisto

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    Well said Surf
     
  16. dmarsh
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    So you can't be bothered to study and you can't be bothered to find where to spend your £5k ? :eek:

    Its your responsibility to figure out how to spend your money not the certforums community, any advice given is generously given for free by the community, it is not a right.

    Goodluck with that course ! I doubt you will bother to turn up ! :D

    The Microsoft site lists approved training providers, its a bit buggy and needs some patience, but it can be used with care to find lists of approved training providers by location and course code. The MS site also lists elearning and training kit resources for home study.

    I self studied so I couldn't reccomend a TP if I wanted to.

    MS seem to reccomend 6 days classroom training per exam, So thats at least 18 days professional training, 30 for MCPD Enterprise.
    Last time I looked professional training in the UK was at least £400 per day, so better find another £2k !

    Realistically you are looking at work experience /self study either side of each MS course, the MS courses are not designed to be taken back to back to pass the exam. So in reality for someone without much experience you can probably treble or more the time required. There are wellknown bootcamps for the MCPD Enterprise and they take 13 days ! These are likely to only be of use for people that just require exam revision and nothing else. To be fair they advertise at least five years experience with .Net. This package costs £7,344 inc. VAT, bear in mind that really thats just revision cramming, not full tuition. Also bootcamp will require travel, a hotel and other related expenses ! So you might have to add another £50 per night, depending on provider.
    The advantages/disadvantages of TPs and bootcamps have been widely debated, look around the forums.

    Many of your college comments could equally apply to a TP and don't represent my college experiences. Only self study is likely to ensure you avoid these disadvantages.

    Most developers I know are used to self study, its a requirement of the job, therefore finding cost effective, high quality MPCD training that runs locally at times you prefer is likely to be next to impossible.
     
  17. greenbrucelee
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    I think people who think we are against TPs are missing the point, it isn't because they provide training.

    It's because some of the methods they employ like overcertifying people.

    charging people different amounts for the same course (this can be found doing a search on CF) at the same TP.

    And basically saying here is some book now give 5k when that is just the same as self study but without the 5k.

    Some TPs must be good or they would stopped but it's seem regardless of what their supporters say there seems to be a majority of people who have had bad experiences with them.

    If more people posted about their good experiences maybe perceptions would be changed but like I said above it seems not many people have had good experiences.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  18. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

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    To be honest I think Dmarsh has provided lots of useful advice in this thread, anyone with experience in what you are trying to do is worth listening too.

    Anyways back to the topic, have you considered finding a mentor?, if not network, look for that person.
    Someone who is already in the field of programming could become a valuable friend, if there is someone you work with who can help you along the way then great.

    One thing I would say first, all the best IT managers I have worked with have a stack of books in their office, I have worked with a manager who was a programmer, and have to say his head was always in a book, maybe you need to get used to this.

    Also lots of programmers do use webforums when starting out to learn, again these are resources that shouldnt be discounted.

    Here is a list of OU courses for IT, http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/computing-and-ict/courses/index.htm, there are a couple you could enquire about, also check your local university and colleges as GBL said.

    Also as you said you dont like books try these guys, http://www.cbtnuggets.com/webapp/store?op=category&category_id=2, these are video based, and will likely get you started
     
    Certifications: A+, Net+, MCSA Server 2003, 2008, Windows XP & 7 , ITIL V3 Foundation
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  19. dmarsh
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    There are similar distance learning providers to the OU all around the world.

    I found this place online :- www.itmasters.com.au

    I think they offer .Net related distance learning courses. I'm in no way related to them and cannot comment on the quality of their service.

    kevicho has also given excellent advice, CBT nuggets resources are normally top quality so for $299.00 you could get resources for MCTS: .NET Framework 2.0 Web Applications and be 2/3 of the way to the web dev MCPD.
    I could be wrong but it appears that Sun run their own training where as Microsoft provide "Microsoft Official Curriculum" materials to MCT trainers and let third parties provide the service, hence they don't directly control the training or the price.

    You've still not even mentioned exactly what type of MCPD you want, which indicates you probably haven't even researched the MS certification site ?

    Are you after version 2.0 or 3.5, which one is your company most interested in ? Are you interested in the Windows, or Web tracks ? Are you interested in the new technologies of WPF, WCF and WWF ?

    I would advise aiming for an MCTS first before you go for MCPD.

    I think theres still some free .Net 3.5 exam betas running which means if you are indeed ready and upto speed you can take a few free exams on the 3.5 track before 12 December 2008.

    One final point, Microsoft certifications don't seem to age that well at the moment, .Net 1.0 and .Net 2.0 tracks lasted what 2 years each ? Visual Studio 2010 and .Net 4.0 are just around the corner, thats another reason not to drop £5k+ on training for a cert.
     

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