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Are there really no worthwhile training providers?

Discussion in 'New Members Introduction' started by surf_uk, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. surf_uk

    surf_uk New Member

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    Hi everyone, brilliant forum you have here, wish I had discovered it months ago!

    I am a softy developer, trying to get away from IT support, but still want to keep up my windows, linux and network skills. I have had about 4 years experience developing software and maintaining pc's servers etc. I have done my degree in computer science and an MSc in mobile computing, so I got the ground work covered. I have found myself developing more and more in c# .net and fancy the MCPD course.

    I have a training budget that I need to use, its roughly £5000, which I have to use. I am looking to get certified with Microsoft, Java and possibly Linux. I am a lazy kinda guy and would prefer someone talk at me than read a book, the bootcamps look good providing I do a lot of homework before hand.

    The next question is where?! easy right, there must be thousands of people offering certification training?! However being based in the UK any search results in disappointment: either £7k for one bootcamp course! or £3k for a 1day/week course (which would probably cost more than £7k in the long run accounting for travel).

    Time for plan B: scour the sponsored section of google results! I found Koenig training in India, they have a much cheaper option and even 1-on-1 training (so they say). About £1.5k per course including accommodation and exams!

    My question is: am I missing something obvious, or are there really no worthwhile options in the UK for certification training? And how trustworthy are Koenig and how reputable would the qualification be (what are the pitfalls?).

    Cheers! any help appreciated ! :)

    P.S. Sun Java seem to advertise courses, prices and locations on their website, why don't MS do this?
     
    Certifications: UNI(Computer Sci. BSc & Mobile Cmp. MSc)
    WIP: MCPD
  2. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I can't really advise you on your way for certs as Programming aint my thing, as for training providers and bootcamps I wouldn't touch any of them as they are expensive and ****.

    If you want to do some courses contact a college/university/open university.

    Welcome to CF
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  3. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    I find it hard to believe you will know enough to pass if you have not read and applied a lot of stuff previously. As a programmer I've spent much of the last 16 years reading 100's of books.

    Sun offer good training, however do not expect to pass the SCJP in under 6 months part time study.

    I would say pretty much the same applies for the MCPD.

    Neither are well suited to bootcamps unless you really know your stuff, in which case why not just self study and turn up at a test centre and save yourself £5k ?

    I looked at Koenig myself in the past and their website does look good, I now suspect that they use braindumps to get students through exams in impossibly short timescales. Microsoft has also created a rule that non indian students cannot test in india.

    I would strongly advise that you invest in some books and CBT's and self study instead.

    Best of luck ! :D
     
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  4. Notes_Bloke

    Notes_Bloke Terabyte Poster

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    Welcome to CF:D

    NB
     
    Certifications: 70-210, 70-215, A+,N+, Security+
    WIP: MCSA
  5. surf_uk

    surf_uk New Member

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    So I guess there aren't any worthwhile/decent/honest training providers!

    What on earth do I do with £5k? surely not books and exams, I would need a warehouse to store them!

    One question to all - has anyone on this forum actually been on a course, UK or otherwise, and are there any hard facts about how ****/good they are?

    I understand that bootcamps could never provide enough training to magically transform a code-monkey into code-god in a couple of weeks. But why is it such a bad thing to have something taught, even a programmer with years of experience could iron out a couple of bad habits this way!

    SCJP just covers the fundamentals taught at uni, I wouldn't waste my time.
     
    Certifications: UNI(Computer Sci. BSc & Mobile Cmp. MSc)
    WIP: MCPD
  6. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    Hi there and welcome :)
     
    Certifications: SIA DS Licence
    WIP: A+ 2009
  7. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    Yes it does focus on fundamentals, but it focuses on them in a LOT of detail, it is narrow but deep. The fundamentals are the best thing to master in any discipline and you can never practice them enough.

    Sure any good programmer can pick up a new language in a month or so, mastery takes far longer. The SCJP is probably a better cert program than the MCPD in my opinion, unfortunately Sun just don't have Microsofts marketing muscle.

    I learnt C++ in a year at college, too me another 4 years to master it. It is unlikely you would pass the SCJP based on what you were taught in college alone, did you cover generics and type erasure ? Static inner classes ? Threading ? It is quite likely that significant parts of the SCJP objectives were not covered adequately in your college course. That is why I reccomend reading some books, you can't expect everyone else to spoon feed you constantly even if you do have £5k to burn.

    The same is true of the MCPD, it covers a LOT of ground, it is wide but shallow. It is very unlikely that any course could cover the entire objectives without you putting in some extra study.

    Sure I'm all for being taught stuff too, trouble is at some point you have to take charge of your own learning, other people won't always be there to bail you out. Really good programmers are generally off programming somewhere and are unlikely to be working for a training provider.

    The benefit of books and some CBTs, is that because they are a published medium the wisdom and knowledge of industry experts that you literally could not pay for, is available at ridiculously cheap prices. By not taking advantage of this resource you are really missing a trick.
     
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  8. UCHEEKYMONKEY
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    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    I agree with dmarsh:rocks!

    Oh and Welcome to CF:sunny
     
    Certifications: Comptia A+
    WIP: Comptia N+
  9. Mr Machfisto

    Mr Machfisto Nibble Poster

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    If I'm allowed to say??

    I'm with a TP and they are awesome, I am on the Technical course, but I'm sure they do programming as well as it is on their student website in forums.

    Drop me a PM if you like and I'll tell you their name, not many people on here like TP's

    MrM
     
  10. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    dude as we have said before, it isn't that we don't like TPs its the fact that they charge ****loads for something you can do for cheap and some don't have very good support.

    If you need support you can use this place and self study and save yourself the price of a small family car :D
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  11. Mr Machfisto

    Mr Machfisto Nibble Poster

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    Understood GBL, but self study isn't for everyone
     
  12. MrNerdy

    MrNerdy Megabyte Poster

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    I used my local Tech College to gain most of my qualifications.
    And as i was UB40 at the time got most for free or greatly reduced through the hardship fund.
    Most companies that offer most courses really dont have the back up with training resources as a local college does. Furthermore most firms will talk the talk until you part with the £££ & then you find the resources are limited.

    Most local Colleges/Adult Education offer most of the widely after Qualifications like CompTIA A+, N+ & Server+
    And also do CCNA, by the way taking Semester 1 & 2 + some self study would help you gain N+

    You just have to look around, ask & above all have an idea about your ultimate goal.
     
    Certifications: ECDL, CiscoIT1 & A+
    WIP: Girlfriend & Network+
  13. Luddym

    Luddym Megabyte Poster

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    I've done few proper courses, but the ones I have done were excellent.

    Admittedly, the TP wasn't one of these ones that specifially advertises 'MSCE' but someone was on a course with me who got a good deal on all of the courses that make up the MCSE.

    I like to use TP's when I feel just a little out of my depth on the training material, as it helps me to understand much better. (Which is why I took my 297 course.)

    If you want the TP's website, feel free to PM me.
     
    Certifications: VCP,A+, N+, MCSA, MCSE
    WIP: Christmas Drunkard
  14. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    True. But if self study isn't for someone, they reeeeally ought to consider whether IT is for them. Once you're in IT, most employers aren't going to pay for you to take a training course... and you constantly have to study to stay on top of your career.

    I actually know of a decent training provider in my area. They screen their applicants, and they don't simply try to sign people up for an A+-to-Infinity slew of courses. So if someone was dead set on taking a training course, I'd send them their way. Still, as GBL said, self study is much cheaper.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  15. UCHEEKYMONKEY
    Honorary Member

    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    OMG!:ohmy I can't believe you actually think that way! Shzzzz!:cussing

    Well, I guess it must be different in the US? because over here in good old blighty people do go on training courses and yes some companies send their staff to training providers!8)

    Just because some people have had their share of bad experiences with some TP's out there, doesn't mean to say that every TP out there that offers IT certs/training is crap or charge over the hill prices!8)
     
    Certifications: Comptia A+
    WIP: Comptia N+
  16. UCHEEKYMONKEY
    Honorary Member

    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    That's true it all depends on how the individual learns a subject!8)

    There are lots of people on here that do self study and a lot of them struggle with self study and motivation.8)
     
    Certifications: Comptia A+
    WIP: Comptia N+
  17. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I do indeed. Because if you can't discipline yourself to self-study, how are you possibly going to advance in IT? Companies don't generally send their employees to training providers for weeks at a time. They just won't. It costs money to take the classes, and it costs money to pay their salary while they're gone, and during that time, that person isn't available to work.

    More importantly, technology moves far too quickly to have to wait on a class before you know how to do something. No; you have to pick it up on your own, or you get left behind.

    Sorry, mate, I don't buy it... because from what the UK people on this very forum say, it's pretty much the same there as here. Why? Because it's basic business logic.

    Yes, SOME companies will send their staff to training providers. The overwhelming majority will NOT. Reject that if you want... but like it or not, that's reality.

    I never said that. In fact, you'll see I've said the opposite in this very thread. Look up, about three posts... oh wait, it's right there, isn't it? :D

    Not every TP is crap. Some are.
    Not every TP tries to sell as many courses as possible regardless of usefulness to a student. Most do.
    Not every TP charges over the hill prices. I guess that depends on your definition. ALL of them charge more than self-study, and that's my primary argument against using them. Not because they suck... not because they are out to get you... but because it's really not necessary to go to a training provider to get certified.

    And if it IS necessary for you to go to a training provider to get certified... then sorry, you're in the wrong field. Sorry, mate, but I've seen (and worked with) those people who can't study unless they go to a class. They usually get passed over while they remain stagnant in their jobs... and to be honest, I am glad that they are my "competition". I've seen what sets those who have succeeded apart from those who have failed. Companies hire motivated self-starters who don't require hand-holding to succeed. Everyone else usually gets left behind.

    Again, you can believe it or reject it... doesn't matter to me. My career is built; I'm posting to help you guys succeed.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  18. UCHEEKYMONKEY
    Honorary Member

    UCHEEKYMONKEY R.I.P - gone but never forgotten. Gold Member

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    Clearly it does matter, otherwise you would not of responded to my post!:rolleyes:

    I'm not even going waste my time and effort in explaining what is wrong with your last statement or even take over this thread. 8)
     
    Certifications: Comptia A+
    WIP: Comptia N+
  19. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    You could start another thread to discuss this further, as I have some comments to make as well. :)
     
    Certifications: SIA DS Licence
    WIP: A+ 2009
  20. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    I'll say what I've said before on this subject. You need to build a solid foundation. This can sometimes be the hardest part, some people will need help with this part, thats why I went to college for instance. You learn how to study and the fundamentals of the subject. When you have a solid foundation you are far better equipped to then carry on the process on your own. I totally agree with BM on this point because although the initial foundation is important, you then go on to build a skyscapper on it ! The next 99% is expected to come from you and your hard work, so yes go to college get some initial help, but realise that sooner rather than later, in fact ideally while you are at college you need to read around the subject, study everything you can, think of the implications of things, pose 'what if' questions, question why things are they way they are, learn the historical context, etc.

    So for entry level certifications go to nightschool if you must. Advanced certs by definition assume you are already in the business and already a self starter, originlly there weren't ANY specific training materials for many certs, you were expected to learn the subject yourself, things are MUCH easier now, CBT's, colleges, exam cram, test prep, training guides, etc. If you can't use these to pass an advanced certification then you are probably not well suited to the job as BM correctly states, you will be in a crowded market with many other highly motivated individuals who will be eating, sleeping and breathing the stuff ! Pratically every IT course I've ever been sent on was at the END of the project when I had already had to self study to learn the subject to complete the project, thats how it works in the real world ! (Poor management I know !)
     
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH

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