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not necessarily discrimination mate, you wouldn't hire a fat guy to be the face of a gym would you?

i agree it's not the best way to hire people but the company wants a professional looking public image and if someone is hired to deal with customers on their behalf then they have every right to say what you should and shouldn't wear when dealing with their customers on their behalf.

 

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Every human being does what they do because they get some type of internal reward for it, so what is yours? What is so personally gratifying about flaunting societal norms for appearance?

 

I do agree with you mate, but there are a lot of 'old-fashioned' ideas still around, and things aren't fair.
A woman can wear a skirt or trousers to work. If a man decides to wear a skirt to work, I imagine his boss will have words.

Some of my colleagues smoke, and pop out for 5 minutes every hour for a quick fag. I only get one break because I don't smoke.

It isn't right and it isn't fair.
However, rules is rules even if they are the unwritten ones of society. You choose to conform, or you choose not to. If you choose not to, there are going to be people who have problems relating to you. Not necessarily because of your appearance, but because of the fact that you have chosen to deviate from the 'norm'. That can make people uncomfortable.

I'll put my hand up and say, I'm really, really sorry, but I would judge you INITIALLY because of your appearance.
I'd love to say that I wouldn't, but I'd just as soon be honest.

I know this is a personal and emotive issue, so I really don't want to upset anyone.

That's the great thing about this forum. We are all the same here and it doesn't matter.

 

your missing the general point of the rules
when you work for a business, the business image must be portrayed, its not about if you cna do your job, if your brilliant and always on time, at the end of the day the image and professionalism of the business is what needs to be maintained
i've learned that a lot and very quickly at times, as a techy i generally turn up in slacks, a polo shirt and trainers, and you know what, im bloody great at what i do
at the end of the day i cant turn up to a new client dressed the same, it doesnt make the business seem professional, it doesnt make me seem professional and doesnt instil any confidence in me to the eyes of the client

call centers or field engineers, its irellivent, professionalism and maintaining the company image is important across the board, and sometimes you wont ever realise that till you find a role that it starts to make sense in, but it all becomes clearer as you progress


to be honest, i wouldnt hold your breath turning upto interviews like that nailbomb, whilst i would probably employ you for your skills, the business is not 100% tech, and most of the time a business person gets the final say, not a geek like me, sharpen up, smarten up, and just 'deal' with the fact that you might actually have to conform if you want to work in this industry

 

Flaunting sociatal norms? who decides norm? if society itself decided norm, what we have as the 'norm' wouldnt be it. the 'norm' is decided by fatcats in boardrooms who try to force their employees to wear what THEY think is acceptable. I wear what i wear because i like the clothes, i just like it. and my reward is that i feel more comfortable in those clothes. Im not flaunting anything, im deciding, based on personal taste what i want to wear and when. I dont buy burberry cause i think its sh!t, i prefer black, and think i look better in black. i like loose trousers because i dont feel constricted.

As for it being something to do with this industry, its not, almost every industry is the same, and its crap. they only get away with it because most people let it happen, prefering to bury their head in the sand than stand up and say, no! I'll admit that im likely one of those people unfortunately. i dont paint my nails at work, and i dont wear my fangs. because i need the money, and this is where i want to work. doesnt mean i agree with it at all though.

and not hiring someone because they are fat IS discrimination. it doesnt matter if you want them to be the face of the gym or not. its discrimination and thats the end of it. they only get away with it, again, because people dont challenge it.

I dont want to be hired for a job because im better dressed than the opposition, i want it because im GOOD at my job (or they believe i will be good with the proper training).

This business image crap is bandied around by all the corporate reps all the time. It doesnt make it right, and in fact its not. 'corporate image' is a buzzword that allows corporations to discriminate without recrimination.

Sorry, but this kind of thing REALLY gets to me.

Fergal

Edit: Jonny, i appreciate your honesty on this. i agree with you on that matter, id much rather people were honest about it.

 

Well, Fergal, I think you've got a lot to learn. I also don't think you're being honest with yourself, or just don't know yourself very well yet. None of us do anything "just because we like it". There are a lot of factors that decide behavior.

When I was your age I had hair down to my shoulders. I lived the counter culture lifestyle. I acted and looked the part of the hippy. If anyone had asked my why I would have said, "Because I like it." However, that didn't really say why I liked being what I was. I liked it because I wanted to rebel against everything. I wanted to be seen as being outside what I saw as hypocritical societal standards. I liked what I liked because I liked rebelling. I really liked pissing my parents off. I liked it because they pissed me off. If you're really going to be honest I think you're probably going to have to admit to the same. You may not be angry at the same people I was but your anger comes through. Your communication says that you're an angry young man, and angry young men rebel, and the choices they make in everything they do, how they express themselves, reveals their rebellion born of their anger. It's just human nature....

 

lol. yeah im angry. particularly on this issue, its one that REALLY pisses me off. i cant say i do it to piss my parents off, my mum doesnt have an issue with what i wear, or what i do (and im pagan, radically different from her views). She pretty much has the attitude that so long as im not hurting anyone what does it matter? im still a decent person.

Rebelling against society's out too id think. theres many things wrong with our society today, but wearing different clothes makes not a blind bit of difference to those things. in all honesty, i believe that everyone should be left to wear what they want, listen to the music they want (even if it is a big steaming pile of poo!), practice the religion they want, etc.

Perhaps i pick black because i have terrible sense of colour and dress sense, i know black works, so its easy. i honestly couldnt say. all i can say is that i like what i wear, and i KNOW im not wearing it to make a statement to anyone. i couldnt give a flying monkey what people in the street thought about me and how i look, nor could i care what they wore (but dont touch me with burberry! *shudder* :lol)

Fergal

 

ok, think you missed my point mate, you wouldn't hire a man to advertise lipstick would you? or use penguins to advertise the caribbean?

what i meant to say was, it's not always classed as discrimination just because you don't look the way they want you to.

as i said above, their image their rules.

 

Are you really telling, Fergal, that if it was your fitness gym you would hire me, a balding, 50 something, fat man as the person to advertise just how effective your gym is at keeping people trim and in shape? Let's get real shall we?

 

I don't know if you have them in the UK but in the US, we have a restaurant chain called "Hooters". The main attraction of this restaurant is that they employ rather "well endowed" women as waitresses. I've never been in one (honestly) but I've wondered what would happen if they turned down a woman for a waitress job because her cup size wasn't substantial enough? Is that discrimination?

 

unfortunately trip, no they don't have hooters here, (could be wrong, maybe london and manchester?)

but im sure they wouldn't get done for discrimination if an a cup lady decided to apply, they probably have certain size criteria to work with, and that's it.

 

ok. regardless. I can see this getting personal on one side or another shortly, so im going to bow out of this discussion. I suppose it all depends on your viewpoint. as an employer, or a recruiter, you think its acceptable to discriminate based on image, but from an employee perspective i (and im sure others) disagree. There are also those who have decided that thats the way it is, and thats the end of it.

i can see WHY companies do it, but that doesnt make it right in the slightest.

Fergal

 

Fergal,

What I see you saying is that political correctness is more important than reality. The facts of life are rarely politically correct and it's a fact that a fat man that never sees the inside of a gym isn't a good fit as a representative for one. That has nothing to do with discrimination, as you're trying to apply the word.

Just because you wouldn't hire me as the face of your fitness gym doesn't mean you discriminate against me personally. You might not have a problem with my appearance or with me personally in real life, but that has nothing to do with the fact a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole.

What you've been saying here is that it's discrimination to not force a square peg into a round hole, and that is plainly not discrimination. That's political correctness. You need to distinguish between the two.

 

Fergal, I'd have a beer with you anytime because I know you through this forum as a person and I'd be happy to consider you a mate.

Don't forget, the original question was 'will my appearance affect me getting a job?' Right or wrong, fair or unfair, I think the general feeling from those who have posted on this thread is 'yes, it will.'

I would hate us to be in an Equilibrium state, where we all looked the same and expression of any kind was banned. It's not that bad, but what you really have to ask yourself is 'do I want that job, or shall I give it a miss because I like wearing fangs?'

All of us here are happy to enter into a debate and hear both sides. Someone interviewing you for a job won't actually be interested in WHY you are doing things, they will just see that you ARE doing them.

I really hope you get the best of both worlds, and wish you the best of luck.

 

:lol of course. this topic just gets me incredibly worked up. best to bow out before it starts to get personal by anyone.

 

I don't like wearing a suit to work. I much preferred my last job where I could wear what I wanted (within reason).

I don't like having to iron shirts, pay for dry cleaning, polish shoes and shave every day much either- but it pays the bills (and the debts....)

 

I salute you!

 

actually i think your all eating into the politically correct crap a little too much

generally you wouldnt hire a fat guy to advertise a gym, he could have a degree in sports therapy, but if he is not right for the role, then too bad, thats NOT discrimination, its just your not right for the damn role

take freddys case for example, he has discoverd that his role requires a lot of lifting, something he can't perform properly, to not hire him is not discrimination, because he infact, cant do the job required of him, technically, he is probably the best man for the job, but a tech role is not 100% tech, and as the industry moves towards more tech/business people rather than pure tech people, it will get less so (not talking you down freddy, you still 'da man')

the gym ones a little more flexible, as the fat guy could do the job, infact i know a few big guys working in gyms who make a fair bit of commision, so they are doing something right

lets not eat the PC crap too much people,
and fergal, you are still missing the point, angry for whatever reason, but missing the point none the less
50 something fatcats telling you what to wear? oh come on, i dressed in black casual when working for a hedge fund with a 50 something millionaire CEO who wore fancy suits every day, i now work for an MD in his early forties, himself a former tech, a laid back guy who takes us out for beers and golf days, but i wear a suit, because its required for my role, it makes my job easier and adds professionalism to my image

i wouldnt pay 600 quid for a ticket on a plane with torn seats with no back support, it wouldnt impress me one bit, i also wouldnt hire a guy who wore torn jeans and slouched, to impress my customers

do i enjoy wearing a suit? depends, to be honest i think it adds a little to my image, it makes me feel more professional, and i come across far more confident when talking to clients, but thats just me
i would quite happily wear trainers and a roll neck, dont quite think i would have the same impact on my clients though

whilst i agree with your point, i dont aggree with the attitude, and still think your missing the point that whilst thats a personal preference for you, that your entitled to, a company pays you because its profitable for them to do so, work is called work because well, it is, we cant all sit in the break out room all day because were lazy, why should we wear what we want because we dont like wearing suits?

 

Well, to get back to the original topic and the question, the answer is you definately will be judged by your appearance whether knowingly or unknowingly from the interviewer. Judging things by how they look is not a new thing forced on us by the corporate fat cats. It's a human instinct that the human race developed to survive with from the very start. If you didn't judge something within the first few seconds you saw it, it meant the difference between having dinner or being dinner. Nowadays the human race doesn't have to fight for survival and so the instinct has been refined.

Like it or not people will judge you and form an impression of you in the first 10 seconds or so that is very hard to change.

Also remember, you don't get a second chance to change a first impression.