Afterlife stuff

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by zxspectrum, Jun 20, 2009.

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  1. dmarsh
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    Churches here get turned into all sorts, mosques, discos, houses, you name it...
     
  2. m3lt

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    Here:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3890080.ece
     
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  3. greenbrucelee
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  4. kevicho

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    Yes, also a very quick google search shows that atheism is on the rise in america if these studies are accurate

    http://www.intheagora.com/archives/...astest_growing_religious_identity_in_america/

    As much as I disagree with Michael's belief I appreciate the effort he is putting into responding on this thread, and obviously is very passionate about what he is saying, and I am sure he can appreciate "the oppositions views" are just as empassioned, and even if we all ultimately disagree I feel it is good we are all thinking of the important questions and willing to try and explain them.

    Well done everyone so far for not making this a slanging match, which most of these debates inevitably turn into.
     
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  5. kevicho

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    If people needed controlling, or a reason to stay on the "straight and narrow" which would be more effective

    Eternity of Hell
    Or
    Eternity of "yeah you were a naughty boy, but eh ho come to the party anyways, get yourself a pint"

    Nowadays education is more prevalent we are taught that it is more valuable to our own lives to be nice to other people, so control by fear (which ironically is still in use by governments with the whole terrorism media storm) is less needed.
     
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  6. JonnyMX

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    Are they?
    I haven't seen anyone here who is as passionately anti-religion as BM is pro.
    There seems to be just a bit of arguing for the sake of it, not really backed up by any decent 'facts' or statistics.

    But probably best let it lie.
     
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  7. dmarsh
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    Well I beleive in logic, critical thinking, the scientific method, systems, forming a coherent holistic world view, etc.

    Myself and various other people could bat this back and forth all day, but it would probably in the end be a pointless exercise for both parties. If a person choses to suspend logic for a certain part of their world belief what use is logical argument ? Why would someone use logic to say fix a PC, but then abandon logic for their belief in nature, creation, society, history and a whole host of other areas ?

    You seem to want someone to be passionate about something they don't beleive in, or be passionate about being disspassionate which by deffinition is either an oxymoron or a person with rather complex beliefs. I work in IT, the KISS principle gets applied to my general beliefs, why complicate matters ? If a simple explanation exists, and it fits the data, use it, sure theres more artistic merit in the other ideas, but I'm not an artist.

    Since most popular modern religions are nowadays fairly moderate and our secular society largely protects us from the more extreme views of such people, I see no reason to get overly excited over it. I also wish at least to some degree respect other people and the forum. There's bigger fish to fry, I'm more worried about poverty or global warming or globalisation, and a whole host of other issues.

    Is it a surprise that people on an IT board are most passionate about IT ?
     
  8. greenbrucelee
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    I could say some very anti religion things, but I won't because I don't want to offend people and people are entitled to their beliefs however illogical and crazy I think they are.
     
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  9. BosonMichael
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    No, I'm not "pro-religion", and no facts or statistics are required. I just believe what I believe. You can do the same.
     
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  10. BosonMichael
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    Simple; I wouldn't. I simply see a belief in God as logical. You do not. Fair enough.
     
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  11. BosonMichael
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    But... being a naughty boy doesn't keep me out of heaven.

    You guys seem to think you know what we believe about salvation and going to heaven... but in truth, you've been fed the wrong idea.
     
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  12. greenbrucelee
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    When I went to Sunday school and all that when I was a kid all we ever heard is be nice and you will go to heaven if your naughty then you will go to hell. I left for a few reasons which I have stated in other topics on this in the past. What I want to know is where is the middle ground? if you commit a murder then turn to god, will you go to heaven? or are you doomed anyway? and if you are why turn to good side?
     
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  13. m3lt

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    Well according to the bible you need to believe that jesus died for your sins and that he is your savior, to get to heaven.
    Past is not taken into account as you will be a "new born".

    No wonder most people live bohemian lives to get away with a "bed conversion".
     
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  14. BosonMichael
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    I guess that all depends on whether you truly repent for your sin. No sin is unforgivable. But if you decide you want to murder someone with the intent to ask for forgiveness later, I suspect that won't fly. That said, I'm not the judge that they'll have to convince.

    We're all sinners. Doesn't matter if we've murdered or lied or stolen - we've all sinned. Not saying that some sins aren't more serious than others... but sin is sin. Even so, Jesus paid the price for our sin so that we wouldn't have to pay that price. Still, we must accept that free gift of salvation He gave to us and accept Him - not ourselves, not money, not stuff - as our Lord and Savior.

    Christians are by no means perfect. We still sin, even when we shouldn't. But we've been forgiven... and that offer is open to anyone who wants to accept it from Jesus.

    Does that make us free to sin? Of course not. If we truly follow Christ, we shouldn't want to sin anymore. But we are human... and we do.

    If they truly think they that a "deathbed conversion" will grant them a free pass into heaven, they'll likely find that they're not able to trick God.

    That said, if the conversion is genuine, then God will know their heart.
     
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  15. greenbrucelee
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    The above reminds me of a freinds dad.

    His dad was a scientist who wouldn't believe in God because he needed proof but his Wife was a practicing christian who wept when she found her unmarried daughter was pregnant even though she had been with her partner for 5 years:blink

    Anyway when the dad was on his deathbead he told his wife he had accepted God, now wether he truly did or just said that to alay his wifes fears of eternal damnation I will never know. I just wonder if he has found the proof he wanted.
     
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  16. BosonMichael
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    I took a look at this link... it says that atheism and the Muslim faith is growing, but it doesn't say anything about Christianity.

    Personally, I haven't seen much of a change - then again, I live in the "Bible belt" of America. Plus, our local congregation is growing steadily.

    Still, there seem to be a *lot* of people who call themselves Christians who are just Sunday-morning Christians and go back to doing whatever they want during the other 6-1/2 days of the week. Is that Christianity?

    Assuming that Christianity is actually declining in the US and UK, it's increasing elsewhere in the world, particularly in places that were once completely closed to Christianity.
     
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  17. dmarsh
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    Logic involves creating a framework of rules and non conflicting statements that allow us to reason meaningfully about the world.

    Much of your statements appear to be constructed to prevent analysis of the world. They offer flawed propositions, assumptions, or are just tautological, convoluted, circular or self referential.

    You say you believe in a just god ? Wouldn't a just god give identical data to each individual so they can all have the same chance to be saved ? Why would he show himself to only a few and give them an unfair advantage, how is that equitable or just ?

    You said god should be hard to believe in, then you said he was easy to believe in, a contradiction displayed just two posts apart.

    You describe god as a loving just father type figure, yet he hates gays and thinks women are second class citizens ?

    If we should not ignore our neighbours suffering why can god ? Isn't that holding us to a higher standard ?

    You state that I should beleive in your religion because I will be punished otherwise ? How is that just or fair ? Since many religions mention they will punish me if I do not beleive in them, and many also forbid following multiple religions, what am I to do as a logical person ?
    You state that I should follow your religion because you have made a supposition that your religion is right, since this supposition is unproven the statement is false or also unproven.

    All it tells me is that I am possibly (if i'm lucky, no one knows exactly how the god/s in question will judge) no longer threatened by one religion, but all the others still threaten me, which seems like no progress at all.

    What if you've chosen the wrong religion ? Then you might still be beaten by the horse gods or whatever ?

    What about the shamanic tribes that have never encountered any western culture ? Should they burn in hell for worshiping the jungle gods ?

    So we are all sinners, even an unborn fetus ? How can a fetus convert to christianity ? What happens if it dies in childbirth ?

    Perhaps the best logic is to then chose to follow the religion that threatens the worst punishment ? Is it any surprise then that some religions seem try to out do each other to have the worst punishment or the nastiest hell ?
    Its almost as if human priests designed it that way ? A sort of religious GPL license, its funny how religions have these viral memes no ?

    Believe in me or go to hell. Only beleive in me or go to hell. Make others beleive in me or go to hell. Christen your children or they go to hell. Do not tolerate others that do not beleive in me. Do not promote inter religious marriage. Do not question your faith. Pay taxes to your religion.

    Its almost as if preists set out to design a self protecting political system ?

    What do you make of religious fatwa's ? Do you think its right that christians are condemed to death in some religious / non-secular states ?
     
  18. kevicho

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    My point wasnt about how you keep out of hell, more to do with the idea religion has been used to control the majority of people to be fearful of the possible consequences in an afterlife to stop them commiting crimes or "sins" however you want to look at them.

    Considering no matter how much i do for charity, helping others without asking for anything in return, how much i do for my fellow man and how clean a life i lead i have no chance of getting to heaven whereas a mass murderer (or in fairness a martyr in other religions) can get in due to inviting jesus into their hearts after their actions.
     
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  19. BosonMichael
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    That's because you don't understand them.

    I've told you both in open and on PM about some of the logic I use... for example, the prophecies which were recorded that eventually were fulfilled in Jesus.

    There's also plenty of logic that I saw while taking my classes in Organic, Inorganic, and Physical Chemistry that point to a designer, not the result of random chance. I've seen what happens when the universe is left alone to random chance - systems tend toward chaos, not order.

    He doesn't show himself to only a few - everyone has the same opportunity to see Him through His creation. Romans 1:20 states:

    "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

    So He shows Himself to you every day. You simply don't believe He had anything to do with it. That's your choice.

    Eh? I never said God should be hard to believe in. It's hard for some people to believe because they require proof. It's not hard for me to believe, because I see the logic in it.

    He doesn't hate gays (or anyone - He hates sin), and he doesn't think women are second-class citizens. Again, these are lies that have been fed to you; neither are true.

    Now you're trolling. Haven't we covered this ground before? God doesn't ignore suffering.

    No, I never stated that. I believe that you should believe in God simply because He is our Creator and, as such, is worthy of worship. If you choose to not believe in Him, then the Bible states that you will be punished... but the threat of punishment isn't why you should believe.

    In any case, if He doesn't exist, what do you have to worry about?

    Logically study and analyze them and see which one, if any, make sense to you - whether that be through emotional feeling, gut instinct, or logical thought process. Then don't worry about whatever punishment is mentioned in the other (or all) religions. And you have likely already done that.

    No, I never stated that either. You shouldn't believe in God just because I say it's true. In fact, I've said before that you should analyze it on your own, and I've given you suggestions on things to read, should you choose to.

    You seem to want to put words into my mouth. Please read what I have said carefully, and don't assume.

    All the religions may threaten, but only one is true or none is true; they can't all be true, as they teach different things. So, in truth, you're either "threatened" by a bunch of paper tigers, or a bunch of paper tigers except one.

    If that is your choice... but that doesn't seem logical to me. Belief in Christianity (or any religion, in my opinoin) just because you feel threatened isn't much of a belief. Thus, I don't base my belief on whichever punishment is worse than another.

    Personally, I'd study to determine which one makes the most sense and not worry about the punishments of the other religions.

    If you'd read the Bible, you'd see that that's not the message it has to offer.

    Nor is all that the message it has to offer. Certainly the belief in God and God alone is true... but I don't have to (nor can I!) make others believe in God to go to Heaven. And there's nothing about christening of children in the Bible.

    Considering I don't believe in Islam, I don't think they hold any weight. So what do you think I'll say about Christians being murdered?

    For the record, I don't think Muslims should be condemed to death for being Muslim, either.
     
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  20. BosonMichael
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    But fear of consequences doesn't truly make you a follower of Christ! :D

    There's no possible way to live a life without sin. It's not possible. The Bible even says so! So we can't possibly be perfect enough to get into heaven. Nor can you get into heaven by doing good works - not by doing things for charity, not by helping your fellow man, not by going to church, not by avoiding sin. You can NOT "buy" or "earn" your way into heaven. None of that keeps you out of hell.

    There will be plenty of people who say, "Lord! Lord! Look at all the wonders I did in Your name!" And Jesus will say, "I never knew you." --Matthew 7:22-23

    How do you know the murderer truly accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior? That's between him and God. If he is just saying that to avoid hell, that's probably not going to work. It takes more than just saying a few words.
     
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