Afterlife stuff

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by zxspectrum, Jun 20, 2009.

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  1. JonnyMX

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    I read in the news that they found the missing link a few weeks ago.
    So it's not missing any more.

    Another example of our ever changing world...

    8)
     
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  2. greenbrucelee
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    I think what needs to be said is that everyone has their own views, the only time those views become wrong is when they are forced or shoved in peoples faces.

    My question to religious people is would you follow your religion if your parents hadn't have fed you on it from birth?

    I do not believe in religion as they all seem to be controlling in my opinion and offer people false hopes. I am not entirely sure what I think happens when you die, I would like to think you move on to another life but I thinks it more likely that end up being worm fodder and nothing else. The idea of heaven and hell to me, is what you make of your life before you die.
     
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  3. m3lt

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    First of all, by "educated" I meant people who actually spent time on their lives studying and understanding how things work, how they came to be they way they are now, where did the changes occur and why.
    That was the type of education I was talking about.

    Though, it was not meant to call people stupid more or less apathetic to their surroundings, as I'd rather spend a day learning for instance how our eyes came to be, than accepting that god did it. How easy and convenient that might be.

    Secondly, religion and superstitious beliefs do add artistic and perhaps a way of cultural richness to the human society as we can see for example in the various chappels and monasteries around, but thats where it ends.
    It is divisive, it blinds and retards us from progress and it allows people to hang into something that is a fantasy.

    There is no light or polite way to say it, but religious and/or superstitious people are living in their own little world of fantasy, a world where they prey to an non-existing superior being in the hope he will help them, a world where they believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree..., etc etc
    The list simply goes on...

    Now, I am tired as I just got from work, but shoot me with reasonably logically plausible explanation that when I die I will return back to earth, or why I should believe that there is something out there.

    Call me arrogant, preposterous and what not, but there is no way to say that people that believe in such things have no idea of the beautifully evolved and complex world we live in.

    For those who believe that a superior being made this whole universe and everything within, please, please take time to understand how things actually work before believing in something most certainly your parents/family passed on to you.

    Because if there are several religions in the world, and none can be considered "right", it means they are relative, and if something is relative it is neither "right" or "wrong".
    So why are you wasting your life believing in such things ?

    Peace and love for everyone, from this "unsaved" dude. 8)
     
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  4. Modey

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    Pretty much spot on with what I think also GBL.
     
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  5. zebulebu

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    What - you mean like Geological Science with Palaeontology? My degree in other words. That pretty much sums up at least our physical evolution on Earth. I believe in the theory of evolution. I believe in it fervently - because there is probably no more widely tested theory in existence. that doesn't mean that I can't see a pretty large gap in it - there's nothing in the evolutionary theory that explains consciousness, intelligence and feelings - I am quite willing to believe that there is something 'unscientific' about how humanity came to be 'special' - be that through the intervention of divine being(s), meddling by unseen hands from parallel univereses or even intelligent alien cultures 'seeding' our planet 2 million years ago with something that caused a switch to flick somewhere undiscovered in our genetic code. Does that make me 'less educated' than you?
    You pretty much DID call people stupid if they don't agree with your 'beliefs' (oh, the irony!). Do you think that all Ophthalmologists are faithless heathens simply because they understand how the eye works? By your rationale, because they know what parts the cornea, vitreous humour, iris, pupil etc play they can't possibly be religious. Do you realise how silly that sounds? Or are you saying that because YOU don't see how they can know all this - yet still believe that there is a 'higher power' - that churches, mosques, temples and synagogues across the land are bereft of Ophthalmologists?
    I wasn't going to comment on this - I'll leave that to people like BM - who I believe has recently undertaken some missionary work overseas. I will say this, though - for every instance where religion has been an underlying cause of conflict in the world there are dozens more where it has been a force for good. For your information, most wars are started over money and power - religion is a convenient smokescreen for war but very infrequently the actual cause of it. Yes, some wars are started over faith. Many more are started because some bastard just wants to exercise control and fear over the majority of their country's populace.
    This is, basically, just infantile. You've taken bits and pieces from several comedy routines that you've seen and spliced them together to try and be funny. Sadly, it hasn't worked. You've come across as petty, childish and insulting - which is quite sad. I think you'll find that, with the exception of the miracle of resurrection, most people consider the bible to be allegorical. Not many christians believe that the translation of the bible describes actual events as they took place. The bible has always seemed, to me, to be more of a 'code' to live your life by - the parables in the bible are obviously designed to impart a means of living a healthy, happy, peaceful life. Do I believe in 'God'? No. Do I believe in strict adherence to ANY form of organised religion? No. DO I believe that people have the right to believe what they want without fear of ridicule? Absof***inglutely. You, and people like you, set the 'cause' of Atheism back by centuries. Its people like you that make religious types smile and shake their heads - you rail at them for believing in something you consider to be 'stupid' - yet fail to see that most of them couldn't give a monkeys what you believe - its the fact that they have 'faith' that gives them strength. If that helps them feel better about themselves, more power to them.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, since your sentences are constructed poorly. Maybe someone 'better educated' can figure it out.
    So, because I've read lots of material on various Eastern philosophies, I must be Asian, right? Or my parents must have been Buddhists? Actually - I was born into a Christian family. I went to church regularly when i was young. Just to batter some more holes in your arguments - my Mother let me choose what to believe when I was old enough to understand. I turned away from the church - because I don't believe in the tenets of Christianity. I feel have a healthy, loving relationship with my mother and wife. I'm sure that, deep down inside though, they're both cackling their evil religious laugh, waiting for me to die so I can be judged as a 'sinner' because I didn't carry on/convert to their faith...
    ...and why, precisely, is it any of your business WHAT anyone believes?
    ...except, apparently, anyone who doesn't believe what you do?
     
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  6. BosonMichael
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    Yep... because they didn't. They gave me a taste, and let me explore on my own, while they stayed at home on Sundays.

    In truth, I don't think I really "got it" until quite recently.

    The "religion" doesn't control me. I control me. I simply choose to worship my Creator because I believe He is worthy to be worshipped. They don't offer me false hopes - what do you think I'm giving up in exchange for those "false hopes", really?

    "Church" doesn't change me, mate. God changed me. Church simply gives me a place to fellowship with other people who believe. That's about it.

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter what any of us believe it is... because it is what it is regardless of what we believe, or whether we believe at all.
     
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  7. BosonMichael
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    Wow. So, you mean, like, studying something like a hard science, like Chemistry or Physics, right? Seeing how the world actually works, and all? You're saying I need that to be educated?

    Guess what? I've got that... BSc in Chemistry (Advanced) and a minor in Physics - graduated Magna Cum Laude. And ya know what? The more I learned, the more I realized how unlikely it is for "all of this" to have just happened by chance. There's far, far, far too much design in how things work, both at the macro level and at the subatomic level, for it to have been random.

    But... that's just my belief as a scientist. Believe what you will.

    Or, perhaps, spend more than a day learning how our eyes work, and then try to take the next logical step to figure out why they came to be.

    If you really think that Christians don't study anything and just blindly accept that God did this and God did that... you've got entirely the wrong idea about Christians.

    Perhaps you should try to study us sometime like you claim to study eyes.

    Mmmm... that isn't how it works, mate. Again, a little study might do you some good.

    It's called "faith", m3lt. If you don't have it, I can't logically make you have it. It would be useless for me to try to convince you. I can tell you what I believe... and then allow you to learn on your own, if you choose. That's up to you; my job isn't to make you believe.

    Then, if you insist, I'll call you arrogant and preposterous and what not... becuase I believe in such things, and I have a solid idea of the beautifully evolved, magnificently created, and incredibly complex world we live in.

    But there are plenty of religions who believe that they are right and the others are wrong. It is not logical to say that none can be considered right. Certainly that is one possibility... however, one of them COULD be right and the rest of them be wrong... just because they all think they're right doesn't mean they're automatically all wrong. There ARE absolutes in the world. You can choose to believe in one of them or not; that's your decision.

    I could ask you the same question: Why are you wasting your life NOT believing in such things? What's the point of life if all you have to look forward to is a cessation of existence?

    Hey, if you choose to believe that, I won't stoop to your level and call you uneducated or stupid. It is your choice. Choose what you will.
     
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  8. greenbrucelee
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    Fair enough, it's just a lot of people I know who are religious only got into it because of their parents and not because they had the option to explore it or other alternatives.


    As for the control and false hopes, my foster mother was brought up in one of those institutions ran by the church from about 1946 if I remember correctly and so her every day life was clean the orphanage, go to prayers then go to school, come back do cleaning go to chruch then homework. So she was forced into it, she carried on going to chruch all throught her life until 1994 when she eventually plucked up the courage to leave her husband and start a new life.

    The church members who she thought were her friends shunned her and she told me a story where a couple who lived around the corner from us crossed the road to avoid her. Now correct me if I wrong but I though it (Christanity/all religions) all preach love and understanding but this wasn't understanding or loving infact seems a bit hipocratic if you ask me.

    So does that mean there are thousands of people in unhappy/abusive marriages staying together because they think they won't go to heaven when they die if they divorce? sounds controlling and giving false hope if you ask me.

    Fair enough, I don't and can't understand this but I have nothing against you believing this.
     
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  9. dmarsh
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    Well firstly you make what I think is a classic religous mistake (of western religions at least) of placing human beings above other animals, I see very little evidence we are special, we seem very similar indeed to many other lifeforms in various ways. The belief we are 'special' and above nature and other animals seems to have just encouraged us to over exploit our environment.

    I can see certain evolutionary advantages to being able to reason about the world, simply an animal able to look into a pool without barking at its own relection and be able to hunt the fish beneath would be an advantage. To know your status or place in the pack as a pack animal.

    Intelligence again, being able to solve puzzles and use tools to get food or build a nest and survive, even birds and squirrels can do this. Being able to navigate and find your way home, even insects can do this.

    Feelings, being able to change your state radically using chemicals, things like adrenaline ? Fight or flight ? You can't see any evolutionary advantage to that ? Being chemically induced to stay with a mate for long periods in order to protect your young, no advantage to that ?
     
  10. m3lt

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    Zebulebu and BosonMichael, perhaps you ought to understand things from a certain perspective that only a few experience it.

    I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, garden gnomes or gods... heck, at one point I believed my level 80 Shaman could actually heal people!

    Now, when said people start beating their own son to make him go to church, punishing him harshly when he slept the weekend in the street basically just to avoid the sunday morning and then well, giving him a beat after he appeared at home eventually...
    Now that is when it started to worry me and build up not a hate, but a very deep confusion and perplexity on why these people do this.

    And that happened to me. My parents, both church ministers who were leading a 1000+ member church where the hardcore type of christians that take the old testament to the letter.

    You live in a family like that as an atheist, as a young man who at the age of 10 was baptised and then 1 year later just threw things out and said: Fck it, this is all wrong and BS!

    At that time it was a point of no return for me, so what I did was to try to understand why these people act the way they do.

    ...

    Ok, there are people who are very understanding and respect each others faith, I do to the extent that I do not go around bashing it and proving they are wrong until I am asked what is my opinion on the subject. In that case of course I veheemently attack it, because while most people cannot see the direct and indirect effects, I in the first person saw and experienced them.

    Unfortunately as I said too, there is no polite way to say it that the people involved in deep religious coma, are very dangerous to the ones that are not, or at least swinging between believing or not.
    It works like that Herbalife diet scheme where these people carry proudly the photos and stories of people who lost weight and "preach" to you too that one day, you can be as happy as them.

    That is straight out an injection of your belief system to others.

    ...

    You have mentioned me that I am trying to do the same, to make people drop their beliefs and jump to the bandwagon of non-existence and a grey beauty to life.
    I am not trying to do that.

    I shared my opinion, and I asked people to ask back at me why they believe in what they believe. It is that simple.
    I want to know why, how and for what purpose they believe now.

    Please, I want to understand. Is it because you are happier ?
    Is it because your parents and/or family have show you the "way" ?
    Or do you think it is pointless not to believe in anything ?

    You guys seem to be smart people and educated too, so I am sure you will come up with a good explanation in why you believe in what you believe.

    ...

    On the other hand, when I said that religions are relative, they are really. Imagine that someone who were born into an islamic family and brought up that way, will firmly believe they are right and that (gasp) they will get 72 virgins in heaven when they die as martirs!
    Likewise, if you were born into a christian family you will also believe you are right and others are blind to the light...

    So, it is this disparity between religions that people should understand that there is no right or wrong, but rather a circumstantial aproach in how you get to believe the way you do believe now.

    Contrary to what people might think, my love for life, for others is too great and much more important now than when I thought I was religious.
    I will not get a second chance (heaven, after life, etc..) of doing things right, I will not get a second chance to tell the truth when I lied before, I will not get a second chance of saying sorry to a person I did any wrong doings...
    You live your life now, and you do whatever you can do positively enhance a persons life directly or indirectly, because if you can and you dont, what can you be called ?

    That is how I see life. I dont condone people who believe in what they believe, I dont hate people...
    I just happened to experience first hand, what those beliefs can do in the long run.
     
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  11. Bluerinse
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    Opens the pressure valve on this thread and lets a little steam out.

    Please, everyone try not to get too emotional. This thread, by it's very nature is likely to get out of hand.. my finger hovers over the lock button.

    It's a shame Trip isn't around, his input on this type of discussion is often mind blowing.

    It's interesting to note the difference between the English members of the forum and the Americans.

    Maybe quality of life has an affect on ones beliefs :rolleyes:

    Which ever way you look at it, life is amazing, make the most of it and make love, not war :wink:
     
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  12. m3lt

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  13. JonnyMX

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    I went to an Anglican school and had to sit through my fair share of chapel services and whatnot.
    It just didn't click with me - I gave it a go and made my choice.

    On the subject of being 'educated', what was interesting (to me, anyway) was the I was taught physics, chemistry and biology by men in dog collars.

    I asked my biology teacher one day how he dealt with what I saw as two contradictory messages - teaching evolution and then holding a church service.

    He was quite comfortable with it and felt that one didn't exclude the other - I won't go into the whole conversation here, but it was all very reasonable.

    So there is no point in trying to seperate people into 'religious' or 'educated'.
     
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  14. greenbrucelee
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    agree ^

    we are all monkeys:D:twisted:
     
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  15. zebulebu

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    Apes.
     
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  16. m3lt

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  17. Bluerinse
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  18. BosonMichael
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    Still, you are painting all Christians with a broad brush - worse, you're ridiculing them, implying that they don't have a rational mind to be able to weigh things out on their own simply because their parents believed what they believe. There are **plenty** of people who went to church when small only to reject it later in life... and vice versa.

    If you truly think that most Christians believe what they do because of their parents' beliefs... is it not equally as ridiculous/amazing to see atheists who are atheists simply because their parents were? Either both are, or neither are...

    I would think that any orphanage is going to make the kids clean and go to homework, so that "control issue" has nothing to do with the fact that they are Christian. Further, that institution took her in while she was a minor; while she may have indeed been "controlled" by them, I challenge you to find a minor living under their parents' roofs that aren't "controlled" to some degree by their parents. For adults, the church controls neither jack nor squat.

    You're confusing "the church" with "the people", mate. ALL of us are sinners. We're all flawed. Why is it surprising that imperfect people will act imperfectly? Christians aren't perfect - we're far from it. In truth, we're no different than anyone else... we've simply been forgiven of our sin. Sure, we OUGHT to act better... but we often fall short, just like everyone else.

    All that said, none of what you said about those Christians' behavior has to do with "control" or "false hopes".

    Why would you not go to heaven if you get a divorce? That might be what Catholics believe... but it's not what most Christians believe. If that's what you think Christians believe, then you've got the wrong idea of what we believe.
     
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  19. skulkerboyo

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    My partner grew up in what we will term a high demand religious organisation. She left at the first available opportunity aged 16. Her experiences and those of her childhood friends were horrific. Some have gone on to write books about it. Some have killed themselves. Some are still in the organisation

    Despite this she is intelligent enough not to be bitter towards religion and run around using her extensive arsenal of "when religion goes bad" anecdotes to support her atheism. Her beef is just with the individuals that played their part.

    We are both atheists and have both read the god delusion. A good read but we both felt Mr Dawkins needs to chill out a little
     
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  20. BosonMichael
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    Dude, there's nothing in Christianity that says that it's OK to beat a child. That said, you aren't respecting them when you stay out on the street simply to avoid church. Sounds like your hatred of church arrived long before the beatings.

    I will say this... even though your parents were/are church ministers, they're just as flawed as everyone else. They're not perfect. They were raising you the best way they knew how. Might have been wrong - I'll never beat my child for not wanting to go to church - but that's their sin that they have to deal with.

    As far as the church you were attending, I'll tell you the same thing I told GBL: you're painting all Christians with a broad brush. If you don't believe the Old Testament should be taken to the letter, there are plenty of churches that don't take such a strict definition,taking much of the Old Testament law into historical perspective. Not saying that you should rush right out and attend one of those churches... but I *am* saying that you shouldn't scoff at our beliefs simply because you had a bad experience at one church (or multiple churches) and with the flawed humans that attend them.

    That must be rough. But everyone has to come to a decision on their own. They can't force you to believe something that you don't. They CAN probably force you to go to church while you live under their roof... but that's true of any parent-child relationship... they can force you to go to the grocery with them, if they want. You don't always get to do what you want as a child. Just sit through it and endure it... and believe what you will.

    I only hope that when you have children, you won't keep them from exploring Christianity just because you don't believe it. If you do, then you would be doing no different than what your parents tried to do to you.

    Because they believe that they're doing the best thing possible. We're flawed, just like everyone else. We do things we shouldn't. In truth, we need a Savior just as much as anyone.

    But... you do go around bashing it.

    But... you cannot prove that they are wrong... no more than they can prove they are right. Best I can do is share what I believe and allow you to believe what you will.

    It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience. Still, you cannot logically take your single experience and say unconditionally that "All religion is bad!". That would be like me living through a plane crash and saying "All flying is unsafe!" - it's simply not true. Much good comes from religion of all sorts, including Christianity.

    No, it's not at all. I simply share what I believe. If you want to know more about it, that's great. If you don't, I can't force it on you.

    Call it what you will. But I wouldn't be following what I'm commanded to do (by someone who I believe to be my Lord) if I didn't share what I believe.

    No, I don't think you are, and if you were, you'd be doing a poor job of it. What I think you're doing is attacking and ridiculing those who believe... which, in truth, weakens your logical argument considerably.

    By contrast, I don't ridicule you for what you believe. There's the difference.

    No... you stated that educated people cannot truly believe... meaning, someone who believes cannot possibly be educated. Is that not ridicule? Is that not attack?

    Saying what you believe is one thing. Telling people they are stupid for believing what they believe is quite another. In truth, when you do, it would seem that you become what you say you dislike.

    Why do I believe? Because I have personally experienced things and learned about things ("the way the world works", as you said) that lend credence to the existence of a Creator. I have taken the time to do research on why and how the Bible was written (as well as the things that occur within it), and it all makes logical sense to me.

    I did attend church when I was small, but only when we visited my Grandmother's house. My father went only out of obligation to his mom; when we went home, we didn't go to church. But I learned enough to make me curious for more. I started attending church on my own when I was 9 or 10, though I only went for a few years. And although I called myself a believer, I really didn't go back until I was 29, and that's when I think I started to understand and research and find out WHY I believed what I said I believed. In truth, I didn't believe then like I believe now; the more I studied and questioned and researched (both Christianity AND other religions), the more I came to believe in God and, more importantly, understand.

    I don't believe because I am happier, though I am happier. I believe because I have experienced things only an interested God could have done. And I worship Him because He is worthy of my worship. Even if I've got everything all screwed up and wrong, I am attempting to worship a Creator who took the time and effort to make us and everything around us, directly or indirectly. If I'm right, my worship probably makes Him pleased (as any parent would be when his child loves him). If I'm somehow wrong, and everything has just been random... what have I lost? I *really* don't feel like I'm wasting my time. If I am... so be it.

    The more I open my heart and my life to God, the more I see Him and what He has done in my life. And that's not something you're going to see if you don't truly want to... faith is the first step. If you don't want to believe, there's not much I or anyone can say to change your mind or convince you.

    Just because I believe one thing and someone else believes another doesn't mean that all religions are relative. There ARE absolutes. Really, it doesn't matter what I believe or what someone else believes - the truth IS what it is. Whether the truth is that Jesus came to die for our sins, that we get 72 virgins, or that we simply cease to exist, SOMETHING is true. And we're not going to know the truth until it happens to us.

    But there IS right and wrong.

    If you truly believe that there is no right and wrong... then you must believe that what your parents did was neither right nor wrong. But you don't - you believe that it was wrong for them to do that to you. So how can there be no right and wrong?

    Nobody says you can't love more than a religious person. But neither can one say that you have to be an atheist to truly love... nor can one say that a religious person can't love more than a non-religious person.

    Nor will we Christians. Heaven (or the afterlife) isn't for making things right; if you think we believe that, then you don't understand what Christians believe.

    Exactly. That's is exactly why evangelical Christians tell others about Jesus. If we can, and we don't, we're not doing what we have been commanded by Jesus to do. Doesn't matter what everyone else calls me; I don't want to find out what Jesus would say if I *didn't* tell people about Him.

    You're not looking past yourself, then. Sure, there *is* bad that has happened due to religious beliefs. But there's plenty of good that has happened because of them as well.

    In the long run, it's not about us; it's about God. There's a higher plan that neither you nor I can clearly see or fully comprehend. Farbeit from me to say that what He is doing is wrong. I might not understand it... but I have faith that He knows what He's doing.

    And if He doesn't exist... what have I lost that I could have had? Nothing.
     
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